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thank you

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[Music]

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yeah

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welcome back to Super Saturday on

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calling all beings I'm your host DJ

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along with the money man Frank

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Leah Matt and Debs we got the entire

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team in the house for you today for a

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very special individual you all know who

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I'm talking about we're gonna intro him

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here in a minute but before we do that

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cabbies Nathan you know we and anybody

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else who got something to say about this

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you know please chime in but uh a very

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special friend uh of the show part of

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cab fam is uh Miss Kelly chase the

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author of uh UFO rabbit hole and her it

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is uh UFO Rabbit Hole podcast uh is

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hosting an event called uh Ohio Heritage

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I'm gonna throw the ticker at the bottom

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of the screen right there Nathan's got a

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visual ready for us and Nathan

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my goodness man that there is uh when

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you look at this list of people any UFO

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nerd like myself uh wants to be there to

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to interact with these people can you uh

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get us into this a little bit yeah I

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mean where to begin so if you're a fan

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of Jeffrey [\h__\h] which you should

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because you're here today uh you saw and

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probably heard him speak at the inquire

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anomalous conference in New York not too

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long ago which was co-hosted uh by our

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friend Kelly Chase and of course she was

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putting on this conference in Ohio with

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a bunch of amazing speakers and I'm

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going to put the speaker's list up here

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on screen just so you can see how many

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incredible names we've got here so James

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Fox uh Dr prasolka Bryce zabel from the

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need to know podcast uh Dr Michael

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Masters Micah Hanks my good friend Dara

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nexo academian of course Kelly Chase J

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Christopher King Phil Ford and J.F

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Martel both from the weird studies

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podcast so an incredible lineup if

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you're looking for something to do in

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the spring you're thinking about oh I

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got a plan as spring vacation where do I

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go and meet some people and hang out and

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get some great UFO content this is it

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this is the one uh May 5th and 6th and

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that's up at Wright-Patterson Air Force

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Base in fact it's hosted at the Hope

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Hotel I believe which is located

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directly on the base pretty incredible a

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lot of uh sort of UFO lore wrapped

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around Wright-Patt that everybody's

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familiar with but uh I'm excited to go

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and I know those of you who may not

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better make it in person there are also

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virtual tickets but we're offering a

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little bit of a giveaway right DJ so

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we've got uh a couple of all inclusive

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sort of passes that we're willing to

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give away you want to talk a little bit

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about that

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uh yes sir uh so what we're going to do

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we have uh two free all event passes and

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all you have to do is uh is is basically

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uh DM Nathan on the at calling beings uh

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Twitter handle

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uh basically what you're gonna do is

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name off at least 10 of Dr cripple's

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books and if you do that the first

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person to do that will win two free all

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event passes uh to this event uh Kelly

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Chase's UFO uh Heritage conference in

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Ohio so uh anybody else want to chime

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anybody else have anything to say about

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Prime I know you got something where you

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at

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dude I'm so excited for the lineup on

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this event yeah I'm on mute so you guys

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can't hear the excited noises I'm making

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in the background like squeaking

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um yeah I'm super super hyped for Dr

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pisulka of course right she's super

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formative in the field um everybody

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knows um well maybe not everybody this

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is why I added my sub ticket here about

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being more woo than I appear

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um huge fan of EXO Darren right like

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he's super formative for me so between

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those two and plus um look Kelly is a

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[\h__\h] girl sorry Kelly is a girl boss

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of UFO Twitter of the podcast scene um

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I'm just delighted to see her success in

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this space and I'm just genuinely so

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impressed with the lineup that she's

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managed to get for this so all around I

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think this is gonna be an incredible

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event

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yeah and you know something uh there's

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only two of those speakers the last two

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Mr Ford and Mr Martell that we've not

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had on cab so oh no actually Mr zabel we

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haven't either uh so yeah we might need

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a leg up with that any of y'all that

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have uh Bryce Sable so there's only

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three people we haven't had but we'll

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we'll get that done because now that I'm

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aware of these other uh two gentlemen

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what we'd like to I'm sure we would want

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to have them on here uh without further

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Ado

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um please if you want to win these free

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passes go ahead and DM Nathan at calling

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beings is the Twitter handle 10 of Dr

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cripple's books uh you name them and you

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are going to be the first one that does

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that you will win free passes this event

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we'll hook it up but uh now I think we

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should get into the guests of honor what

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do y'all think good let's do it all

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right this gentleman I'll tell you what

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man he is a professor of religious

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studies at Rice University this guy is

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so dope he's been speaking at

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conferences he's been educating and

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regulating for over a decade on this

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topic so put your hands together for Dr

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yeah

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can I get it amen for Jeffrey [\h__\h]

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amen

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yes sir

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good morning

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who needs coffee right Jeff that's yeah

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well I need some coffee for that one

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yeah we got you covered Jeff we're going

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to give you all the all the stimuli you

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need right here we got it for you not

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only with our questions we've even had

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some of our friends give in a couple of

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questions because we've got to open it

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up like that but I'd like to kick it off

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Jeff with something that I think all of

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of uh UFO Twitter uh wants to know in

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our community because you know when you

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think about it uh there is this this

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thing that uh I think A wise man once

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said a man's choice of potato chip is a

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window into his soul actually I think I

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said that but uh so what I think

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everybody wants to know you know on the

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panel and Beyond is are you a kettle

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chip type person are you a person that

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likes seasoning on his potato chips are

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you a just a sea salt person

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um can you please tell us about potato

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chip choices I like all potato chips

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it's hard to go wrong that's my answer

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what really like you're just somebody

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opens up a bag and you're just going for

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it you don't have a preference no

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problem salt and vinegar what about that

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wow no salt vinegar is good no oh man

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it's all good that's why I draw the line

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I'm sorry

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all right Nathan we're gonna have to

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cover that on a future cab when we don't

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have Jeff here uh is get everybody's

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potato because I think it's it says a

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lot I mean personally I'm a kettle chip

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with The Ridges kind of a thing just

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lightly salted uh but uh I'm glad that

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you're going omnidirectional when it

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comes to chips I think that shows a

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great flexibility uh but now get into my

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real question before uh we pass it on

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and it'll just keep going like in around

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in a circle Jeff and then if you have

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anything you want to ask us or US to

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consider uh that can happen at any time

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um so my question is regarding uh this

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is something that we talked about on our

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prior cab and we didn't quite get all

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the way through it although Nathan did

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give me a great dissertation on it and

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I'd like to get your take

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um so regarding exorcism

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uh there's a new podcast out that uh

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where they're sharing stories of father

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Carlos Martin's uh called The Exorcist

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files and some

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hair raising stories to say the least on

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there of uh individuals he's interacted

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with and I'm I'm going to want to get

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broad on this but I'd like to go narrow

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first and then we can broaden the

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question out

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um but from a narrow perspective

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someone that lived in the same town as

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he did had a wife who was had and if

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you've heard the story uh forgive me

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I'll say it for the audiences uh benefit

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um this woman was trying desperately to

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get pregnant and she took a dark turn

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she saw some sort of a psychic or

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somebody who was into you know

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Witchcraft and told her that you have to

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take a life to get a life and she

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started killing bugs and then it turned

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into animals and she was sort of lining

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this bedroom in their house with dead

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animals

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um and the husband was getting really

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concerned and started to hear voices and

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so forth

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he ended up finding outfit he lived

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close to uh father Martin's and when

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spoke with him when he was cleaning out

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his garage

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and when he came he he said can you come

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over and and meet my wife and just talk

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with her not that he was going over

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there to perform an exorcism and upon

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entering the house the the Demonic voice

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that we've heard about cried out as soon

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as he walked in in a T-shirt and jeans

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and so my question to you the narrow

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question is how do you think that

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whatever that spirit or demon that uh

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apparently was inhabiting that woman

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knew that

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and what does that tell us if anything

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that's a little question right DJ

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well we could do the narrow question how

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did that's yeah I I'm happy to try to

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take a step I'll say two things

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um neither of which is really an answer

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to your question because I don't have an

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answer to your question DJ I don't know

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what that voice was or what that entity

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is but I do I do have some things to say

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about the phenomena of demonic

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possession and I'll I guess there's

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three things I'll say

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um

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so Thursday night I spoke at Arizona

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State University on a panel on space

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exploration with brother consomagno from

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the Vatican Observatory and the question

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was one of the questions was what

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religious Doctrine will need to be the

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most uh transformed or changed if we

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encounter extraterrestrial intelligence

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um I personally think demonology is a

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big mistake

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um for the most part

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um I think human beings

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suffer intensely and dissociate in

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various ways and that possession is part

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of that that human suffering that that

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trauma it's not to say there aren't

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discarnate beings in the room or in the

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person I'm not denying that

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but I think the access to these

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questions is one of compassion and

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sympathy and not frankly demonization I

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think it makes the situation far worse

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actually

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um so I'll say that

274
00:11:25,970 --> 00:11:23,760
the other thing I'll say is you know

275
00:11:28,670 --> 00:11:25,980
I've learned a lot from my colleagues

276
00:11:30,290 --> 00:11:28,680
who studied demonic possession and one

277
00:11:32,569 --> 00:11:30,300
of the most profound things I've ever

278
00:11:34,490 --> 00:11:32,579
heard about it

279
00:11:35,630 --> 00:11:34,500
is from a medievalist named Barbara

280
00:11:37,850 --> 00:11:35,640
Newman

281
00:11:40,970 --> 00:11:37,860
who basically points out

282
00:11:43,610 --> 00:11:40,980
that there's a lot of theorization of

283
00:11:45,410 --> 00:11:43,620
possession in the medieval world and at

284
00:11:47,990 --> 00:11:45,420
the bottom of it is this notion that for

285
00:11:51,710 --> 00:11:48,000
something to possess another entity you

286
00:11:56,930 --> 00:11:51,720
have to share a nature with that entity

287
00:11:59,870 --> 00:11:56,940
possession implies Unity actually

288
00:12:01,850 --> 00:11:59,880
um and you know Barbara goes back to the

289
00:12:03,710 --> 00:12:01,860
nature of God actually

290
00:12:05,210 --> 00:12:03,720
um and and I I don't want to engage in

291
00:12:07,910 --> 00:12:05,220
God talk here this early in the

292
00:12:11,150 --> 00:12:07,920
interview but I do think possession

293
00:12:14,269 --> 00:12:11,160
gives witness to a deeper kind of

294
00:12:15,829 --> 00:12:14,279
of of unity between different entities

295
00:12:18,470 --> 00:12:15,839
or different kinds of presences

296
00:12:19,009 --> 00:12:18,480
including human presences

297
00:12:22,910 --> 00:12:19,019
um

298
00:12:26,630 --> 00:12:22,920
and I worry DJ I worry a lot about

299
00:12:28,610 --> 00:12:26,640
demonic language I think it it always it

300
00:12:30,650 --> 00:12:28,620
almost always makes the situation worse

301
00:12:32,509 --> 00:12:30,660
and it's often a kind of religious

302
00:12:35,449 --> 00:12:32,519
projection

303
00:12:38,449 --> 00:12:35,459
um I I study religions and I know that

304
00:12:42,350 --> 00:12:38,459
religions demonize one another they call

305
00:12:44,569 --> 00:12:42,360
each others God's demons and I worry

306
00:12:46,670 --> 00:12:44,579
about that I just I'm just really

307
00:12:49,370 --> 00:12:46,680
concerned about that

308
00:12:51,889 --> 00:12:49,380
so there's a bit of brand uh brand

309
00:12:54,290 --> 00:12:51,899
awareness that's embedded in that

310
00:12:56,690 --> 00:12:54,300
podcast trying to get that out there a

311
00:12:58,370 --> 00:12:56,700
little bit of of of branding on probably

312
00:13:00,470 --> 00:12:58,380
on the church's part

313
00:13:01,910 --> 00:13:00,480
um I won't take up because uh we've got

314
00:13:04,610 --> 00:13:01,920
a lot to get through and not a lot of

315
00:13:06,350 --> 00:13:04,620
time let's go right to uh money Nathan

316
00:13:08,690 --> 00:13:06,360
thanks DJ said Jeff yeah great to have

317
00:13:10,970 --> 00:13:08,700
you with us uh so when we told our

318
00:13:12,710 --> 00:13:10,980
audience that we were having you on uh

319
00:13:15,250 --> 00:13:12,720
somebody on Twitter posted an image of

320
00:13:18,170 --> 00:13:15,260
Professor X who probably had that uh

321
00:13:19,910 --> 00:13:18,180
Association before I know you've talked

322
00:13:21,650 --> 00:13:19,920
a little bit about the X-Men and your

323
00:13:23,509 --> 00:13:21,660
interest in that uh some crossover

324
00:13:25,310 --> 00:13:23,519
issues and so I think this is a good

325
00:13:27,530 --> 00:13:25,320
segue to kind of what you just talked

326
00:13:29,870 --> 00:13:27,540
about because uh Professor X right in

327
00:13:32,329 --> 00:13:29,880
the X-Men is sort of trying to help

328
00:13:34,190 --> 00:13:32,339
these individuals manage their abilities

329
00:13:36,590 --> 00:13:34,200
and some of those abilities come with

330
00:13:38,990 --> 00:13:36,600
you know the gift of helping people but

331
00:13:40,730 --> 00:13:39,000
also the possibility for intense

332
00:13:42,290 --> 00:13:40,740
destruction and there are a lot of

333
00:13:44,569 --> 00:13:42,300
different sort of philosophies at play

334
00:13:46,310 --> 00:13:44,579
Within the X-Men in terms of uh you know

335
00:13:48,350 --> 00:13:46,320
all mutants are bad all mutants are good

336
00:13:50,389 --> 00:13:48,360
there's a little bit in between so what

337
00:13:52,670 --> 00:13:50,399
would it mean you know I know you've put

338
00:13:55,550 --> 00:13:52,680
some thought into this to a world that

339
00:13:58,550 --> 00:13:55,560
might be a future world that we're

340
00:14:00,590 --> 00:13:58,560
moving into where we may be more readily

341
00:14:03,170 --> 00:14:00,600
acknowledge that there are people with

342
00:14:05,210 --> 00:14:03,180
you know solubility of some kind or

343
00:14:07,490 --> 00:14:05,220
there is some sort of maybe genetic

344
00:14:09,470 --> 00:14:07,500
manipulation at play there people with

345
00:14:10,910 --> 00:14:09,480
just differences and and we're having

346
00:14:12,949 --> 00:14:10,920
trouble I think managing the differences

347
00:14:14,750 --> 00:14:12,959
we have today imagine what that world

348
00:14:17,750 --> 00:14:14,760
might look like so what do you think

349
00:14:19,790 --> 00:14:17,760
would be a good sort of rubric to use to

350
00:14:21,769 --> 00:14:19,800
or think about how we might bring these

351
00:14:23,690 --> 00:14:21,779
folks together what learnings might you

352
00:14:26,569 --> 00:14:23,700
have from uh from Professor X or your

353
00:14:29,569 --> 00:14:26,579
own studies there yeah so I do talk

354
00:14:30,350 --> 00:14:29,579
about the X-Men mythology a lot I I love

355
00:14:31,210 --> 00:14:30,360
it

356
00:14:35,030 --> 00:14:31,220
um

357
00:14:37,790 --> 00:14:35,040
I try to inhabit the mythical role of

358
00:14:40,850 --> 00:14:37,800
Professor Xavier so the the projection

359
00:14:42,650 --> 00:14:40,860
is not just a projection it's uh it's

360
00:14:44,689 --> 00:14:42,660
it's it's what I call a midlife

361
00:14:47,150 --> 00:14:44,699
regression you know it's about not back

362
00:14:47,870 --> 00:14:47,160
to 10 years old is what it is

363
00:14:50,990 --> 00:14:47,880
um

364
00:14:53,689 --> 00:14:51,000
but the reason I love the mythology is

365
00:14:56,930 --> 00:14:53,699
because the mutant students of Professor

366
00:14:59,090 --> 00:14:56,940
X are all frankly messed up

367
00:15:02,269 --> 00:14:59,100
and they don't get along

368
00:15:04,730 --> 00:15:02,279
and they disagree profoundly and the

369
00:15:06,290 --> 00:15:04,740
main protagonist of of Xavier who's also

370
00:15:08,329 --> 00:15:06,300
his dearest friend

371
00:15:10,670 --> 00:15:08,339
is Magneto

372
00:15:13,129 --> 00:15:10,680
and Magneto of course represents this

373
00:15:15,290 --> 00:15:13,139
very nietzschean you know Screw the

374
00:15:17,990 --> 00:15:15,300
humans let's let's take over the world

375
00:15:21,769 --> 00:15:18,000
kind of thing and Xavier inhabits the

376
00:15:24,290 --> 00:15:21,779
much more kind of liberal Professor kind

377
00:15:25,310 --> 00:15:24,300
of position and I think both of those

378
00:15:30,949 --> 00:15:25,320
are

379
00:15:32,990 --> 00:15:30,959
um and I think it's the debate

380
00:15:35,210 --> 00:15:33,000
um or the conversation between Xavier

381
00:15:37,670 --> 00:15:35,220
and Magneto that that matters

382
00:15:39,230 --> 00:15:37,680
and that whole mythology is driven by

383
00:15:42,350 --> 00:15:39,240
those differences

384
00:15:45,829 --> 00:15:42,360
and again I don't have some kind of

385
00:15:49,310 --> 00:15:45,839
simplistic or naive or utopian answer to

386
00:15:51,829 --> 00:15:49,320
how we all get along but but my one

387
00:15:54,110 --> 00:15:51,839
answer which I I do really

388
00:15:56,870 --> 00:15:54,120
um think is true is we have to keep

389
00:15:58,670 --> 00:15:56,880
everything on the table and we have to

390
00:16:01,629 --> 00:15:58,680
stop dismissing and demeaning these

391
00:16:04,790 --> 00:16:01,639
people with abilities because that's

392
00:16:07,910 --> 00:16:04,800
dishonest it's intellectually dishonest

393
00:16:09,170 --> 00:16:07,920
it's morally damaging

394
00:16:10,730 --> 00:16:09,180
um and again as part of this

395
00:16:12,970 --> 00:16:10,740
demonization that we were talking about

396
00:16:16,430 --> 00:16:12,980
earlier I mean historically

397
00:16:19,790 --> 00:16:16,440
magicians and and Sorcerers and witches

398
00:16:21,949 --> 00:16:19,800
have not been treated well for thousands

399
00:16:24,710 --> 00:16:21,959
of years by

400
00:16:28,129 --> 00:16:24,720
by civilization frankly

401
00:16:31,370 --> 00:16:28,139
so that X-Men mythology is not it's not

402
00:16:35,269 --> 00:16:31,380
new it wasn't invented in 1963 it's it's

403
00:16:38,329 --> 00:16:35,279
Millennial it's Millennia old and

404
00:16:40,490 --> 00:16:38,339
uh you know I see my own little role as

405
00:16:42,949 --> 00:16:40,500
just kind of begging to take these

406
00:16:45,590 --> 00:16:42,959
experiences seriously by which I do not

407
00:16:48,050 --> 00:16:45,600
mean naively or on critically I mean

408
00:16:49,310 --> 00:16:48,060
sympathetically and as something that

409
00:16:50,870 --> 00:16:49,320
actually happened

410
00:16:52,970 --> 00:16:50,880
you know when somebody reports a

411
00:16:55,370 --> 00:16:52,980
precognitive dream they they had a

412
00:16:57,590 --> 00:16:55,380
precognitive dream stopped calling it a

413
00:16:59,990 --> 00:16:57,600
coincidence that's that that's fake

414
00:17:02,389 --> 00:17:00,000
that's an intellectual cop-out let's

415
00:17:05,030 --> 00:17:02,399
let's think with that and and and adjust

416
00:17:06,770 --> 00:17:05,040
our worldview accordingly so

417
00:17:09,710 --> 00:17:06,780
that's not an answer to your question

418
00:17:11,030 --> 00:17:09,720
but I think it's a beginning

419
00:17:13,250 --> 00:17:11,040
um and I think it's kind of where we're

420
00:17:15,470 --> 00:17:13,260
at we're kind of at a beginning

421
00:17:17,510 --> 00:17:15,480
yeah thank you I love that I love your

422
00:17:22,909 --> 00:17:17,520
shirt Dr [\h__\h] it does look a lot like

423
00:17:25,189 --> 00:17:22,919
mine so I think that uh it dabs yep so I

424
00:17:26,990 --> 00:17:25,199
have a billion questions but I would

425
00:17:29,630 --> 00:17:27,000
like to start with one of the more basic

426
00:17:32,390 --> 00:17:29,640
questions you have an upcoming archives

427
00:17:34,610 --> 00:17:32,400
of the impossible sequence coming out

428
00:17:36,350 --> 00:17:34,620
could you please tell people what to

429
00:17:38,450 --> 00:17:36,360
expect with what's coming out in the

430
00:17:42,230 --> 00:17:38,460
future with archives of the impossible

431
00:17:45,710 --> 00:17:42,240
yeah thanks Leah um

432
00:17:47,510 --> 00:17:45,720
so you know one works where one is

433
00:17:50,330 --> 00:17:47,520
um one doesn't work where when not it

434
00:17:53,210 --> 00:17:50,340
when when where what is it and I happen

435
00:17:54,770 --> 00:17:53,220
to live and work in the academy and so I

436
00:17:57,610 --> 00:17:54,780
see it as

437
00:18:00,169 --> 00:17:57,620
a really useful thing to get

438
00:18:02,990 --> 00:18:00,179
academics to take these things seriously

439
00:18:05,390 --> 00:18:03,000
and as part of their work and so about

440
00:18:07,070 --> 00:18:05,400
eight years ago we started something at

441
00:18:10,430 --> 00:18:07,080
Rice called archives of the impossible

442
00:18:13,330 --> 00:18:10,440
which is a physical archive it's it it

443
00:18:16,970 --> 00:18:13,340
now consists of over a million documents

444
00:18:20,750 --> 00:18:16,980
uh and multiple donors including Jacques

445
00:18:23,450 --> 00:18:20,760
valet and Whitley streber and and Ed May

446
00:18:25,430 --> 00:18:23,460
of the remote viewing program and they

447
00:18:27,770 --> 00:18:25,440
continue to come in by the way

448
00:18:31,310 --> 00:18:27,780
um and we continue to process them

449
00:18:33,590 --> 00:18:31,320
and last year I decided it was time to

450
00:18:35,930 --> 00:18:33,600
have a conference and announce this to

451
00:18:38,270 --> 00:18:35,940
the world it was still covid

452
00:18:40,610 --> 00:18:38,280
you know so there was a bit of a

453
00:18:43,190 --> 00:18:40,620
challenge but we had over 1700 people

454
00:18:44,510 --> 00:18:43,200
register for that event and 200 people

455
00:18:46,610 --> 00:18:44,520
show up

456
00:18:48,529 --> 00:18:46,620
and you know that may not sound like a

457
00:18:50,930 --> 00:18:48,539
lot just to your listeners or viewers

458
00:18:54,289 --> 00:18:50,940
that's like mind-blowing in an academic

459
00:18:56,210 --> 00:18:54,299
world that's like wild uh sort of off

460
00:18:58,190 --> 00:18:56,220
off the charts

461
00:19:00,470 --> 00:18:58,200
um interest

462
00:19:02,270 --> 00:19:00,480
and when we posted the plenaries we got

463
00:19:05,330 --> 00:19:02,280
we've had over a quarter of a million

464
00:19:07,370 --> 00:19:05,340
views so that's like really important

465
00:19:08,330 --> 00:19:07,380
and so I decided we were going to do it

466
00:19:12,770 --> 00:19:08,340
again

467
00:19:15,169 --> 00:19:12,780
year May 11th through the 13th anyone

468
00:19:18,650 --> 00:19:15,179
can register to attend digitally

469
00:19:20,390 --> 00:19:18,660
uh it's impossible archives.org to go

470
00:19:21,169 --> 00:19:20,400
and register

471
00:19:23,510 --> 00:19:21,179
um

472
00:19:26,690 --> 00:19:23,520
we'll have to cap the physical Presence

473
00:19:30,169 --> 00:19:26,700
at about 200 220 somewhere in there and

474
00:19:32,090 --> 00:19:30,179
that's just because of food I mean we I

475
00:19:34,310 --> 00:19:32,100
can't I can't afford to feed everyone

476
00:19:36,470 --> 00:19:34,320
after about that many about that many

477
00:19:39,770 --> 00:19:36,480
people so um

478
00:19:42,650 --> 00:19:39,780
it and we've invited we I've made a very

479
00:19:44,270 --> 00:19:42,660
conscious decision not to reinvite the

480
00:19:47,330 --> 00:19:44,280
people that were there last year which

481
00:19:48,890 --> 00:19:47,340
which were a lot of the uh the donors

482
00:19:50,810 --> 00:19:48,900
essentially

483
00:19:52,970 --> 00:19:50,820
um this year we've invited a lot of

484
00:19:56,150 --> 00:19:52,980
people who are working on these issues

485
00:19:57,770 --> 00:19:56,160
in the academy in a very serious way and

486
00:19:58,789 --> 00:19:57,780
there's going to be six plenaries in

487
00:20:03,710 --> 00:19:58,799
about

488
00:20:05,029 --> 00:20:03,720
and a couple panels uh and it's over

489
00:20:08,390 --> 00:20:05,039
three days

490
00:20:10,490 --> 00:20:08,400
and everyone's welcome and I hope I hope

491
00:20:12,470 --> 00:20:10,500
you all join us

492
00:20:14,330 --> 00:20:12,480
I'll tell you what Debs would like to go

493
00:20:16,430 --> 00:20:14,340
there more than like I would want to go

494
00:20:18,830 --> 00:20:16,440
to Naples and have a genuine neapolitan

495
00:20:20,870 --> 00:20:18,840
pizza right now that that's because she

496
00:20:24,490 --> 00:20:20,880
just lives for basically what you're

497
00:20:30,650 --> 00:20:27,529
DJ went last year when we did this I

498
00:20:32,450 --> 00:20:30,660
mean we had people in tears and I don't

499
00:20:35,810 --> 00:20:32,460
mean in a bad way I mean in a good way

500
00:20:38,090 --> 00:20:35,820
they were just so moved by the fact that

501
00:20:40,250 --> 00:20:38,100
we were taking so seriously these

502
00:20:42,529 --> 00:20:40,260
experiences and that a research

503
00:20:44,270 --> 00:20:42,539
University had invested quite a bit of

504
00:20:46,430 --> 00:20:44,280
money in archiving them I mean this is

505
00:20:48,710 --> 00:20:46,440
forever a stencil I mean nothing's

506
00:20:51,650 --> 00:20:48,720
forever right but this is for many many

507
00:20:54,289 --> 00:20:51,660
future Generations which is how we're

508
00:20:56,029 --> 00:20:54,299
going to really do this thing I think

509
00:20:58,490 --> 00:20:56,039
um we have to do something that's going

510
00:21:00,110 --> 00:20:58,500
to last for for decades or centuries and

511
00:21:03,230 --> 00:21:00,120
not just one life

512
00:21:04,669 --> 00:21:03,240
it's so interesting that you have a

513
00:21:06,950 --> 00:21:04,679
counterpart in the Bigfoot Community

514
00:21:09,350 --> 00:21:06,960
named Dr Jeff Meldrum from the

515
00:21:12,830 --> 00:21:09,360
University of Idaho who has the most

516
00:21:15,650 --> 00:21:12,840
prolific collection of archive Bigfoot

517
00:21:18,110 --> 00:21:15,660
prints that have been casted I think in

518
00:21:20,330 --> 00:21:18,120
the world and so it's so funny that you

519
00:21:22,789 --> 00:21:20,340
have an archive that's prolific in our

520
00:21:25,190 --> 00:21:22,799
in the UFO community and then Dr Meldrum

521
00:21:26,930 --> 00:21:25,200
has one for for bigfoot so I love that

522
00:21:30,110 --> 00:21:26,940
we're trying to bring these universes

523
00:21:32,570 --> 00:21:30,120
together Bigfoot UFOs and paranormal but

524
00:21:34,850 --> 00:21:32,580
uh before it yes sir

525
00:21:37,070 --> 00:21:34,860
no no I just said yeah I mean last year

526
00:21:39,409 --> 00:21:37,080
we had a number of of archivists by the

527
00:21:41,450 --> 00:21:39,419
way from from Canada the US and Europe

528
00:21:43,850 --> 00:21:41,460
and a lot of people are doing this by

529
00:21:45,470 --> 00:21:43,860
the way this is this is very much a

530
00:21:47,870 --> 00:21:45,480
Renaissance I think

531
00:21:49,370 --> 00:21:47,880
yeah um before I take up any more time

532
00:21:52,669 --> 00:21:49,380
we got to get to Leah Prime go ahead

533
00:21:54,230 --> 00:21:52,679
ma'am wonderful um I will add to my

534
00:21:56,390 --> 00:21:54,240
actual first career I was a rare book

535
00:21:58,190 --> 00:21:56,400
and manuscripts librarian

536
00:22:00,110 --> 00:21:58,200
um so the work at archives of the

537
00:22:02,870 --> 00:22:00,120
impossible uh on a personal note is

538
00:22:05,149 --> 00:22:02,880
extremely extremely compelling to me

539
00:22:07,730 --> 00:22:05,159
um I was actually going to ask you about

540
00:22:09,830 --> 00:22:07,740
spiritual emergence I'm very invested in

541
00:22:12,049 --> 00:22:09,840
this subject uh in psychedelia and

542
00:22:13,850 --> 00:22:12,059
exotic States Of Consciousness and it

543
00:22:15,649 --> 00:22:13,860
seems to me that modernity has very few

544
00:22:17,570 --> 00:22:15,659
narratives or scripts for navigating and

545
00:22:19,669 --> 00:22:17,580
integrating the ecstatic or Transcendent

546
00:22:20,930 --> 00:22:19,679
experience so I was wondering if you

547
00:22:23,750 --> 00:22:20,940
could speak a little bit about what

548
00:22:25,909 --> 00:22:23,760
resources thinkers or Works may be

549
00:22:27,710 --> 00:22:25,919
useful for people that have these kinds

550
00:22:28,669 --> 00:22:27,720
of experiences and want to make sense of

551
00:22:31,850 --> 00:22:28,679
them

552
00:22:35,330 --> 00:22:31,860
yeah I'm concerned about that too yeah I

553
00:22:37,610 --> 00:22:35,340
mean I live and work in Texas

554
00:22:40,430 --> 00:22:37,620
um and a lot of people have had very

555
00:22:43,490 --> 00:22:40,440
traumatic religious paths

556
00:22:46,669 --> 00:22:43,500
um and a lot of people who write me or

557
00:22:48,590 --> 00:22:46,679
come to Rice have had Trent these

558
00:22:50,810 --> 00:22:48,600
transformative Transcendent experiences

559
00:22:52,789 --> 00:22:50,820
that you're referring to but they don't

560
00:22:56,510 --> 00:22:52,799
have a context for them

561
00:22:58,870 --> 00:22:56,520
and they're often framed dramatically or

562
00:23:01,750 --> 00:22:58,880
pathologically by secular culture

563
00:23:04,430 --> 00:23:01,760
including by the way by the academy

564
00:23:06,230 --> 00:23:04,440
I'm not going to suggest that my

565
00:23:08,149 --> 00:23:06,240
colleagues are friendly to these things

566
00:23:10,130 --> 00:23:08,159
they're not they're they're dismissive

567
00:23:13,549 --> 00:23:10,140
and demeaning

568
00:23:16,310 --> 00:23:13,559
um for the most part and so part of the

569
00:23:18,890 --> 00:23:16,320
work here is simply to authorize people

570
00:23:20,930 --> 00:23:18,900
to tell their stories and to affirm

571
00:23:23,690 --> 00:23:20,940
their stories but you know not to again

572
00:23:26,270 --> 00:23:23,700
sign our names to whatever the content

573
00:23:28,430 --> 00:23:26,280
of the stories are because the stories

574
00:23:29,870 --> 00:23:28,440
differ they they differ and they

575
00:23:31,669 --> 00:23:29,880
conflict

576
00:23:34,190 --> 00:23:31,679
um but again I think a beginning is just

577
00:23:36,890 --> 00:23:34,200
taking people seriously there are

578
00:23:38,930 --> 00:23:36,900
communities of spiritual emergence that

579
00:23:40,789 --> 00:23:38,940
have been active I'm sure you're

580
00:23:43,250 --> 00:23:40,799
familiar with them Leah J Christopher

581
00:23:45,730 --> 00:23:43,260
King helps lead one of see he's coming

582
00:23:48,169 --> 00:23:45,740
to the conference you advertise

583
00:23:50,270 --> 00:23:48,179
there are also a number of spiritual

584
00:23:51,649 --> 00:23:50,280
teachers in in the world who are very

585
00:23:54,409 --> 00:23:51,659
open to this I'm thinking of Jeff

586
00:23:55,970 --> 00:23:54,419
Carrera for example who runs his own

587
00:24:01,190 --> 00:23:55,980
school

588
00:24:03,409 --> 00:24:01,200
um Jean Sean hasbourne his EXO studies

589
00:24:06,350 --> 00:24:03,419
program I'm I'm thinking of a lot of

590
00:24:08,210 --> 00:24:06,360
people here that that are out there

591
00:24:11,090 --> 00:24:08,220
but the truth is

592
00:24:14,390 --> 00:24:11,100
we don't we don't have anything that's

593
00:24:16,909 --> 00:24:14,400
culturally broad or established or

594
00:24:18,470 --> 00:24:16,919
integrated to handle this we and again

595
00:24:20,870 --> 00:24:18,480
this goes back to the demonological

596
00:24:21,950 --> 00:24:20,880
conversation we tend to demonize these

597
00:24:24,529 --> 00:24:21,960
things

598
00:24:27,230 --> 00:24:24,539
and and we and that that that I think is

599
00:24:30,230 --> 00:24:27,240
a big concern because our older stories

600
00:24:32,870 --> 00:24:30,240
simply don't cut it anymore and they

601
00:24:34,909 --> 00:24:32,880
don't work and they exclude people and

602
00:24:37,130 --> 00:24:34,919
and I think part of the Again part of

603
00:24:41,690 --> 00:24:37,140
the process is just helping to authorize

604
00:24:46,549 --> 00:24:44,330
and Dr Jeff Julie said that your shirt

605
00:24:48,350 --> 00:24:46,559
is lovely and mine is just loud so we're

606
00:24:50,870 --> 00:24:48,360
gonna have to compare notes on Clothiers

607
00:24:53,330 --> 00:24:50,880
after the show make sure I get some tips

608
00:24:56,049 --> 00:24:53,340
from you uh and also I just want to

609
00:24:58,250 --> 00:24:56,059
shout out Kelly Chase uh the the uh

610
00:25:00,890 --> 00:24:58,260
organizer of this great event in Ohio

611
00:25:03,590 --> 00:25:00,900
was in the chat so shout out to uh Kelly

612
00:25:05,570 --> 00:25:03,600
uh whom I know Dr [\h__\h] knows and

613
00:25:07,430 --> 00:25:05,580
let's get in uh let's get Matt Knapp in

614
00:25:09,710 --> 00:25:07,440
there

615
00:25:10,370 --> 00:25:09,720
yeah so many questions

616
00:25:13,430 --> 00:25:10,380
um

617
00:25:14,870 --> 00:25:13,440
I I guess my first question kind of

618
00:25:17,630 --> 00:25:14,880
going back to the comic book thing

619
00:25:19,970 --> 00:25:17,640
because huge comic book fan uh always

620
00:25:23,270 --> 00:25:19,980
have been uh

621
00:25:26,810 --> 00:25:23,280
whenever people talk about uh the Bible

622
00:25:28,430 --> 00:25:26,820
and religion in general being for

623
00:25:31,610 --> 00:25:28,440
instance the the Christian Bible being

624
00:25:34,130 --> 00:25:31,620
the inspired word of God do you believe

625
00:25:35,870 --> 00:25:34,140
that works by fiction writers and

626
00:25:38,149 --> 00:25:35,880
artists in general can sometimes

627
00:25:40,430 --> 00:25:38,159
possibly be inspired by some sort of

628
00:25:42,049 --> 00:25:40,440
Greater being or Consciousness and it's

629
00:25:44,450 --> 00:25:42,059
not actually

630
00:25:47,029 --> 00:25:44,460
them creating it as much as they are

631
00:25:48,710 --> 00:25:47,039
just a conduit for the information

632
00:25:49,870 --> 00:25:48,720
yes

633
00:25:52,010 --> 00:25:49,880
thank you

634
00:25:55,070 --> 00:25:52,020
[Laughter]

635
00:25:57,409 --> 00:25:55,080
Matt Matt I I wrote a whole book on that

636
00:26:00,529 --> 00:25:57,419
very idea it's up there on the wall a

637
00:26:01,909 --> 00:26:00,539
mutants I mean the whole the whole book

638
00:26:05,090 --> 00:26:01,919
and by the way I've never been the

639
00:26:08,450 --> 00:26:05,100
subject of a prize or a contest so thank

640
00:26:09,890 --> 00:26:08,460
you for that um yes sir um listen uh

641
00:26:11,149 --> 00:26:09,900
again this is part of my midlife

642
00:26:14,149 --> 00:26:11,159
regression

643
00:26:16,850 --> 00:26:14,159
um I I wrote this book

644
00:26:18,470 --> 00:26:16,860
because Well here here's the story

645
00:26:20,750 --> 00:26:18,480
here's the story Matt I think it's

646
00:26:23,149 --> 00:26:20,760
actually very relevant

647
00:26:24,950 --> 00:26:23,159
I wrote a history of the human potential

648
00:26:28,070 --> 00:26:24,960
movement or the American counterculture

649
00:26:30,529 --> 00:26:28,080
back in 2007 called esslin America and

650
00:26:32,570 --> 00:26:30,539
the religion of no religion and it was

651
00:26:35,269 --> 00:26:32,580
basically about religiously unaffiliated

652
00:26:37,549 --> 00:26:35,279
people who had ecstatic or Altered

653
00:26:38,810 --> 00:26:37,559
States and reframe them and created

654
00:26:41,210 --> 00:26:38,820
something called the human potential

655
00:26:42,890 --> 00:26:41,220
movement which then eventually morphed

656
00:26:44,269 --> 00:26:42,900
into the New Age movement and now is

657
00:26:47,029 --> 00:26:44,279
presently the spiritual but not

658
00:26:49,970 --> 00:26:47,039
religious demographic

659
00:26:55,450 --> 00:26:49,980
um what one of the central ideas of the

660
00:27:00,529 --> 00:26:57,890
parapsychological abilities like

661
00:27:02,690 --> 00:27:00,539
Clairvoyance or or perhaps even

662
00:27:05,570 --> 00:27:02,700
levitation or by location are

663
00:27:07,250 --> 00:27:05,580
evolutionary buds they're signs of our

664
00:27:08,269 --> 00:27:07,260
future evolution of some kind of future

665
00:27:09,710 --> 00:27:08,279
human

666
00:27:12,230 --> 00:27:09,720
and they haven't been integrated yet

667
00:27:14,930 --> 00:27:12,240
into the into the culture and when I was

668
00:27:18,230 --> 00:27:14,940
finishing that book in 07 I realized oh

669
00:27:19,909 --> 00:27:18,240
my God that's the X-Men mythology uh the

670
00:27:22,450 --> 00:27:19,919
the human potential movement is just

671
00:27:25,010 --> 00:27:22,460
it's the X-Men only only these people

672
00:27:28,250 --> 00:27:25,020
are serious about this

673
00:27:30,350 --> 00:27:28,260
and and so I got to eventually to the

674
00:27:32,690 --> 00:27:30,360
question of well what if a lot of the

675
00:27:34,669 --> 00:27:32,700
science fiction is perfectly serious and

676
00:27:36,350 --> 00:27:34,679
what if it comes out of the Altered

677
00:27:38,810 --> 00:27:36,360
States of the the writers and the

678
00:27:40,490 --> 00:27:38,820
artists who who created it and so I

679
00:27:42,710 --> 00:27:40,500
wrote this book mutants and Mystics and

680
00:27:44,330 --> 00:27:42,720
it turns out that in many cases that is

681
00:27:47,630 --> 00:27:44,340
absolutely true

682
00:27:50,149 --> 00:27:47,640
uh and one of the the major cases here

683
00:27:51,649 --> 00:27:50,159
is Philip K dick who

684
00:27:53,330 --> 00:27:51,659
um wrote a lot of science fiction

685
00:27:56,950 --> 00:27:53,340
stories that then became have become

686
00:28:00,169 --> 00:27:56,960
Hollywood movies but Hollywood has never

687
00:28:02,149 --> 00:28:00,179
dealt with the metaphysical opening or

688
00:28:06,409 --> 00:28:02,159
or experience of transcendence to Dick

689
00:28:08,090 --> 00:28:06,419
new in 1974 and to which he traced all

690
00:28:09,710 --> 00:28:08,100
of his science fiction writing by the

691
00:28:12,769 --> 00:28:09,720
way

692
00:28:15,049 --> 00:28:12,779
um so the thing that drove Philip K dick

693
00:28:16,130 --> 00:28:15,059
is precisely the thing that our culture

694
00:28:19,130 --> 00:28:16,140
won't touch

695
00:28:22,549 --> 00:28:19,140
and yet is it the secret or it's at the

696
00:28:24,590 --> 00:28:22,559
core of of American Science Fiction I I

697
00:28:26,630 --> 00:28:24,600
personally think

698
00:28:28,549 --> 00:28:26,640
um and so that's a long answer to your

699
00:28:30,230 --> 00:28:28,559
short question

700
00:28:33,110 --> 00:28:30,240
um but you can read the book if you want

701
00:28:34,430 --> 00:28:33,120
300 pages on on my answer that's and

702
00:28:37,370 --> 00:28:34,440
there's a lot of cool pictures in there

703
00:28:43,430 --> 00:28:39,890
I'm gonna say there is a podcast I heard

704
00:28:45,769 --> 00:28:43,440
yesterday from Jeff back in 2011 with

705
00:28:49,669 --> 00:28:45,779
some guys that were rooted in uh comics

706
00:28:51,470 --> 00:28:49,679
and science fiction and uh of course you

707
00:28:53,390 --> 00:28:51,480
had written a book about that and so it

708
00:28:54,950 --> 00:28:53,400
was really cool to hear that because we

709
00:28:57,049 --> 00:28:54,960
could get off on a little different

710
00:28:58,930 --> 00:28:57,059
tangent and and that was just shows that

711
00:29:01,789 --> 00:28:58,940
you're a multi-tool player Jeff

712
00:29:04,130 --> 00:29:01,799
I I love hearing Philip K dick as part

713
00:29:06,830 --> 00:29:04,140
of this conversation too the balance

714
00:29:10,669 --> 00:29:06,840
Trilogy and his exegesis or her

715
00:29:12,950 --> 00:29:10,679
Excellence yeah so Leah I mean so the

716
00:29:15,049 --> 00:29:12,960
exegesis is his journals his private

717
00:29:17,330 --> 00:29:15,059
journals that he more or less started

718
00:29:19,190 --> 00:29:17,340
after valis the ballast stands for vast

719
00:29:22,010 --> 00:29:19,200
Act of living intelligence system which

720
00:29:25,310 --> 00:29:22,020
is it's his metaphysical inrush

721
00:29:28,130 --> 00:29:25,320
and one of my former PhD students is a

722
00:29:30,049 --> 00:29:28,140
man named Eric Davis who writes a lot

723
00:29:32,810 --> 00:29:30,059
about this and who is part of the team

724
00:29:34,190 --> 00:29:32,820
to transcribed those journals

725
00:29:35,830 --> 00:29:34,200
um

726
00:29:38,029 --> 00:29:35,840
yeah

727
00:29:41,710 --> 00:29:38,039
you're touching on all my favorites

728
00:29:44,870 --> 00:29:41,720
right now I love favorite food

729
00:29:47,630 --> 00:29:44,880
as my people say I'm failing like this

730
00:29:50,029 --> 00:29:47,640
is killing me yeah yeah so we could do

731
00:29:51,049 --> 00:29:50,039
that we could do that for a long time

732
00:29:52,669 --> 00:29:51,059
um

733
00:29:55,010 --> 00:29:52,679
yeah I think there's something really

734
00:29:56,870 --> 00:29:55,020
core and you know my basic view of the

735
00:29:58,730 --> 00:29:56,880
Paranormal is that it's essentially a

736
00:30:01,610 --> 00:29:58,740
story telling itself

737
00:30:03,590 --> 00:30:01,620
and that were caught in a story and we

738
00:30:06,169 --> 00:30:03,600
often don't understand what the story is

739
00:30:07,669 --> 00:30:06,179
we're like what the hell is that you

740
00:30:09,169 --> 00:30:07,679
know but it's it's like being a

741
00:30:10,850 --> 00:30:09,179
character in a movie and you're kind of

742
00:30:14,330 --> 00:30:10,860
waking up inside the movie and you're

743
00:30:16,789 --> 00:30:14,340
like what is going on and who is who is

744
00:30:18,529 --> 00:30:16,799
projecting me or who is writing me I I

745
00:30:21,529 --> 00:30:18,539
really sincerely think that's what the

746
00:30:25,490 --> 00:30:21,539
Paranormal is about on some level

747
00:30:27,950 --> 00:30:25,500
and I think we're we're kind of at a

748
00:30:29,389 --> 00:30:27,960
we're at a turning point where the older

749
00:30:32,330 --> 00:30:29,399
stories of our cultures and

750
00:30:34,190 --> 00:30:32,340
civilizations just aren't working and so

751
00:30:37,850 --> 00:30:34,200
Consciousness is doing what it's always

752
00:30:40,010 --> 00:30:37,860
done is tell stories and try to get

753
00:30:42,649 --> 00:30:40,020
itself out of this this

754
00:30:46,370 --> 00:30:42,659
suffering this this horrible rut or or

755
00:30:48,529 --> 00:30:46,380
whole or Abyss we're in right now

756
00:30:50,510 --> 00:30:48,539
and uh a gentleman right here at the

757
00:30:52,970 --> 00:30:50,520
bottom of the screen uh UFO thinker

758
00:30:55,730 --> 00:30:52,980
Frank is one of the best there is a

759
00:30:57,470 --> 00:30:55,740
contextualizing the news and UFOs and

760
00:30:59,930 --> 00:30:57,480
breaking it down and trying to look at

761
00:31:02,630 --> 00:30:59,940
it from different angles and uh bringing

762
00:31:04,850 --> 00:31:02,640
on people to offer those perspectives so

763
00:31:07,549 --> 00:31:04,860
uh Frank are the best drummer in ufology

764
00:31:10,850 --> 00:31:07,559
please go ahead sir thank you very much

765
00:31:12,950 --> 00:31:10,860
DJ too kind as always and but I also

766
00:31:15,950 --> 00:31:12,960
wanted to shout out your your [\h__\h] that

767
00:31:18,110 --> 00:31:15,960
DJ as well both wonderful shows there's

768
00:31:20,529 --> 00:31:18,120
room for all types of collision patterns

769
00:31:24,409 --> 00:31:20,539
so there you go Julie

770
00:31:25,430 --> 00:31:24,419
and but yeah my question uh was about

771
00:31:27,110 --> 00:31:25,440
how

772
00:31:28,909 --> 00:31:27,120
um technology

773
00:31:31,130 --> 00:31:28,919
um could it could affect how we interact

774
00:31:33,230 --> 00:31:31,140
with the universe as we move along into

775
00:31:35,210 --> 00:31:33,240
the future and Technologies like

776
00:31:38,389 --> 00:31:35,220
neuralink you know could potentially

777
00:31:41,330 --> 00:31:38,399
allow us to add to and enhance our kind

778
00:31:43,909 --> 00:31:41,340
of natural senses maybe enabling us to

779
00:31:46,250 --> 00:31:43,919
experience parts of reality that were

780
00:31:49,190 --> 00:31:46,260
previously unknown and considered

781
00:31:51,169 --> 00:31:49,200
paranormal do you think this this will

782
00:31:54,230 --> 00:31:51,179
happen and how could that affect the

783
00:31:56,090 --> 00:31:54,240
Human Experience so let me let me say

784
00:31:58,610 --> 00:31:56,100
something positive about that and then

785
00:32:00,110 --> 00:31:58,620
let me say something negative

786
00:32:01,610 --> 00:32:00,120
um

787
00:32:03,169 --> 00:32:01,620
yeah

788
00:32:05,630 --> 00:32:03,179
um

789
00:32:08,090 --> 00:32:05,640
I I personally think well let's let's

790
00:32:10,190 --> 00:32:08,100
stick with the Positive first

791
00:32:13,669 --> 00:32:10,200
um I think the big player here is

792
00:32:16,190 --> 00:32:13,679
science and technology and I think we

793
00:32:19,010 --> 00:32:16,200
Now understand ourselves in in a very

794
00:32:22,430 --> 00:32:19,020
different Universe you know after modern

795
00:32:24,649 --> 00:32:22,440
cosmology and the big bang and Cosmic

796
00:32:27,529 --> 00:32:24,659
Evolution and Darwin and biological

797
00:32:29,389 --> 00:32:27,539
evolution and DNA and the computer and

798
00:32:31,310 --> 00:32:29,399
on and on and on I don't think there's

799
00:32:32,570 --> 00:32:31,320
any reason to go back

800
00:32:34,610 --> 00:32:32,580
um and I think all of those

801
00:32:36,710 --> 00:32:34,620
technological and scientific revolutions

802
00:32:39,950 --> 00:32:36,720
have completely changed

803
00:32:42,230 --> 00:32:39,960
us and changed the stories that we're

804
00:32:44,570 --> 00:32:42,240
we're telling so that's

805
00:32:47,630 --> 00:32:44,580
that's the positive side

806
00:32:50,930 --> 00:32:47,640
the negative side is that

807
00:32:53,630 --> 00:32:50,940
people are fetishizing technology and

808
00:32:55,850 --> 00:32:53,640
particularly the computer

809
00:32:57,889 --> 00:32:55,860
um and they I think are vastly

810
00:33:00,049 --> 00:32:57,899
misreading

811
00:33:01,430 --> 00:33:00,059
um impossible phenomena as purely

812
00:33:03,590 --> 00:33:01,440
technological

813
00:33:06,350 --> 00:33:03,600
when a lot of these phenomena clearly

814
00:33:08,389 --> 00:33:06,360
have paranormal aspects that are just

815
00:33:11,269 --> 00:33:08,399
getting sliced away

816
00:33:14,570 --> 00:33:11,279
uh and the the UFO is a perfect example

817
00:33:17,029 --> 00:33:14,580
of that the US Military and our

818
00:33:20,210 --> 00:33:17,039
politicians and a lot of the public are

819
00:33:23,269 --> 00:33:20,220
perfectly fine I think with discussions

820
00:33:26,870 --> 00:33:23,279
of UFOs as Machines of the sky as as

821
00:33:29,210 --> 00:33:26,880
threats as they like to say to to

822
00:33:30,649 --> 00:33:29,220
increase their military budgets

823
00:33:33,649 --> 00:33:30,659
but

824
00:33:35,810 --> 00:33:33,659
if you talk to experiencers and people

825
00:33:38,509 --> 00:33:35,820
who have had contact with these these

826
00:33:40,190 --> 00:33:38,519
things they have paranormal effects

827
00:33:42,649 --> 00:33:40,200
you know people start to experience

828
00:33:46,370 --> 00:33:42,659
synchronicities the they see Bigfoot by

829
00:33:48,769 --> 00:33:46,380
the way or they see Cryptids or they

830
00:33:50,810 --> 00:33:48,779
they bring back a kind of Haunting to

831
00:33:52,909 --> 00:33:50,820
their families even thousands thousands

832
00:33:55,610 --> 00:33:52,919
of miles away but all of those

833
00:33:58,430 --> 00:33:55,620
paranormal Dimensions get sliced away

834
00:33:59,570 --> 00:33:58,440
and I get really

835
00:34:02,630 --> 00:33:59,580
um crabby

836
00:34:04,909 --> 00:34:02,640
about that and I also think a lot of the

837
00:34:06,950 --> 00:34:04,919
AI discussion today is based on a

838
00:34:08,149 --> 00:34:06,960
materialist model of mind or

839
00:34:10,430 --> 00:34:08,159
consciousness

840
00:34:12,829 --> 00:34:10,440
and I think that's the exact reverse of

841
00:34:15,050 --> 00:34:12,839
the of the situation I do not think the

842
00:34:17,450 --> 00:34:15,060
brain creates Consciousness I think the

843
00:34:19,669 --> 00:34:17,460
brain mediates or translates it

844
00:34:21,530 --> 00:34:19,679
and once you make that move or make that

845
00:34:24,290 --> 00:34:21,540
flip then the whole AI discussion

846
00:34:26,589 --> 00:34:24,300
becomes something completely different

847
00:34:30,050 --> 00:34:26,599
AI can certainly

848
00:34:32,629 --> 00:34:30,060
mimic or pretend to be conscious but it

849
00:34:35,750 --> 00:34:32,639
can't be conscious because Consciousness

850
00:34:37,669 --> 00:34:35,760
is not a material product

851
00:34:38,990 --> 00:34:37,679
um so that that's a philosophical

852
00:34:41,270 --> 00:34:39,000
argument

853
00:34:43,550 --> 00:34:41,280
um Frank um and I think that's the good

854
00:34:47,450 --> 00:34:43,560
and and the bad of of

855
00:34:49,369 --> 00:34:47,460
the technological assumptions of people

856
00:34:51,349 --> 00:34:49,379
and that was actually Dan Warren's

857
00:34:52,669 --> 00:34:51,359
question as well that he had asked those

858
00:34:55,129 --> 00:34:52,679
of you who know the fifth pillar of

859
00:34:58,070 --> 00:34:55,139
emphasis on Tick-Tock Dan Warren is

860
00:35:00,710 --> 00:34:58,080
another member of cab fam and he says he

861
00:35:02,870 --> 00:35:00,720
asked you is the brain a receiver or

862
00:35:04,849 --> 00:35:02,880
generator or both of Consciousness so I

863
00:35:07,370 --> 00:35:04,859
think he just answered that yeah yeah

864
00:35:11,030 --> 00:35:07,380
and the reason I say that Dan is

865
00:35:13,190 --> 00:35:11,040
um of course I don't know again but the

866
00:35:15,109 --> 00:35:13,200
idea that the brain is a receiver or

867
00:35:17,270 --> 00:35:15,119
translator of Consciousness puts on the

868
00:35:19,550 --> 00:35:17,280
table all the Paranormal phenomena I

869
00:35:21,589 --> 00:35:19,560
want to talk about whereas the idea that

870
00:35:22,609 --> 00:35:21,599
the brain as a producer takes it all off

871
00:35:28,190 --> 00:35:22,619
the table

872
00:35:31,250 --> 00:35:28,200
and so that is my one Criterion of Truth

873
00:35:34,250 --> 00:35:31,260
is models that take things off the table

874
00:35:36,890 --> 00:35:34,260
are almost certainly not correct

875
00:35:39,650 --> 00:35:36,900
and models that put things back on the

876
00:35:41,990 --> 00:35:39,660
table because they actually happen are

877
00:35:44,329 --> 00:35:42,000
probably way closer to the truth

878
00:35:46,790 --> 00:35:44,339
and and again I don't have that truth

879
00:35:48,710 --> 00:35:46,800
but but I know what takes things off the

880
00:35:51,470 --> 00:35:48,720
table and I know what puts things on the

881
00:35:53,690 --> 00:35:51,480
table and that reductive model of mind

882
00:35:55,670 --> 00:35:53,700
it just takes everything off the table

883
00:35:58,670 --> 00:35:55,680
and that's why I call it the impossible

884
00:36:00,890 --> 00:35:58,680
because it's impossible in in that

885
00:36:02,030 --> 00:36:00,900
reductive model it's not happening it

886
00:36:04,790 --> 00:36:02,040
can't happen

887
00:36:07,609 --> 00:36:04,800
but but it does happen so clearly the

888
00:36:08,990 --> 00:36:07,619
reductive model is wrong I I don't I

889
00:36:10,910 --> 00:36:09,000
don't see a way around that if someone

890
00:36:14,089 --> 00:36:10,920
can point to me you know and show how

891
00:36:15,950 --> 00:36:14,099
that's wrong I'm I'm all ears but I I

892
00:36:17,870 --> 00:36:15,960
just don't see it

893
00:36:20,329 --> 00:36:17,880
I like to say to people I like to say

894
00:36:23,390 --> 00:36:20,339
that um and I kind of got this off of

895
00:36:26,510 --> 00:36:23,400
how a lot of experiences point to uh

896
00:36:28,310 --> 00:36:26,520
that certain intelligences uh if they

897
00:36:30,710 --> 00:36:28,320
abduct a person will try to remove some

898
00:36:32,030 --> 00:36:30,720
of their biology so by that I can infer

899
00:36:33,950 --> 00:36:32,040
I don't know what they want to do with

900
00:36:35,930 --> 00:36:33,960
that but I can infer that they find some

901
00:36:38,930 --> 00:36:35,940
value in it that we don't know what that

902
00:36:43,010 --> 00:36:38,940
value is but I like to think or at least

903
00:36:45,950 --> 00:36:43,020
I I think that if if another

904
00:36:49,550 --> 00:36:45,960
intelligence produced some sort of a AI

905
00:36:51,829 --> 00:36:49,560
derived uh humanoid figure and it went

906
00:36:55,069 --> 00:36:51,839
to a U2 concert with me they could

907
00:36:58,370 --> 00:36:55,079
program it to kind of dance to the beat

908
00:37:02,150 --> 00:36:58,380
and to you know execute a smile and to

909
00:37:03,170 --> 00:37:02,160
look happy but they can't make it feel I

910
00:37:05,510 --> 00:37:03,180
don't think

911
00:37:07,130 --> 00:37:05,520
they because I don't even know what a

912
00:37:09,050 --> 00:37:07,140
feeling is I don't even know how to

913
00:37:11,870 --> 00:37:09,060
explain a feeling so therefore I don't

914
00:37:13,430 --> 00:37:11,880
think they could program it to feel and

915
00:37:15,650 --> 00:37:13,440
so I'm just putting the two together and

916
00:37:18,170 --> 00:37:15,660
saying perhaps that's why they want to

917
00:37:21,170 --> 00:37:18,180
make something that is both biological

918
00:37:23,210 --> 00:37:21,180
and electromechanical so that it can it

919
00:37:25,370 --> 00:37:23,220
can have something that you know if they

920
00:37:28,069 --> 00:37:25,380
take something from us maybe they can

921
00:37:29,569 --> 00:37:28,079
use it so that it it can feel but I

922
00:37:31,910 --> 00:37:29,579
don't think zeros and ones can create

923
00:37:34,790 --> 00:37:31,920
that I think it exists somewhere between

924
00:37:37,490 --> 00:37:34,800
zeros and ones yeah and of course we

925
00:37:40,190 --> 00:37:37,500
made up the zeros and ones DJ

926
00:37:44,329 --> 00:37:40,200
I mean right we we created the computer

927
00:37:47,630 --> 00:37:44,339
sorry I mean so you know if you talk to

928
00:37:50,030 --> 00:37:47,640
mathematicians they're really um some of

929
00:37:52,130 --> 00:37:50,040
them go philosophical very quickly and

930
00:37:54,710 --> 00:37:52,140
they become what we call platonic they

931
00:37:57,170 --> 00:37:54,720
they think numbers exist in in some

932
00:37:59,810 --> 00:37:57,180
other realm and that that again we're

933
00:38:01,730 --> 00:37:59,820
discovering mathematics we're not

934
00:38:04,069 --> 00:38:01,740
creating it that's the real that's the

935
00:38:06,290 --> 00:38:04,079
real distinction here and to go back to

936
00:38:09,290 --> 00:38:06,300
our earlier conversation

937
00:38:10,730 --> 00:38:09,300
you know one of the primary features of

938
00:38:13,069 --> 00:38:10,740
Revelation

939
00:38:17,390 --> 00:38:13,079
in the history of religions is that it's

940
00:38:19,310 --> 00:38:17,400
passive or it's given to a person it's

941
00:38:22,370 --> 00:38:19,320
not something you make up

942
00:38:25,370 --> 00:38:22,380
or or or or create out of nothing and so

943
00:38:27,770 --> 00:38:25,380
when you know someone who's experienced

944
00:38:30,290 --> 00:38:27,780
a UFO or experienced a precognitive

945
00:38:34,010 --> 00:38:30,300
dream tells me about it they are never

946
00:38:35,089 --> 00:38:34,020
the ones doing that it's being done to

947
00:38:36,470 --> 00:38:35,099
them

948
00:38:38,750 --> 00:38:36,480
and

949
00:38:40,730 --> 00:38:38,760
um that to me is a clear sign that

950
00:38:43,069 --> 00:38:40,740
something is being revealed

951
00:38:45,290 --> 00:38:43,079
and and I don't mean that in a in a

952
00:38:47,870 --> 00:38:45,300
traditional religious way

953
00:38:50,569 --> 00:38:47,880
um but I think the traditional religious

954
00:38:52,609 --> 00:38:50,579
ways have something to teach us

955
00:38:55,010 --> 00:38:52,619
I love it two people on this panel have

956
00:38:58,849 --> 00:38:55,020
been to Seminary and you and Nathan are

957
00:39:00,109 --> 00:38:58,859
it so Nathan go ahead brother

958
00:39:01,730 --> 00:39:00,119
um definitely you've got so many

959
00:39:04,910 --> 00:39:01,740
different directions here but and I was

960
00:39:06,109 --> 00:39:04,920
thinking the other day uh I wonder to

961
00:39:08,930 --> 00:39:06,119
what extent

962
00:39:12,530 --> 00:39:08,940
have you seen a change in the students

963
00:39:15,050 --> 00:39:12,540
that you teach in the last I mean she's

964
00:39:16,370 --> 00:39:15,060
if we just take since the the 2017

965
00:39:18,290 --> 00:39:16,380
article that everybody likes to talk

966
00:39:20,210 --> 00:39:18,300
about is the the this Landmark moment

967
00:39:22,310 --> 00:39:20,220
you know what kind of students are you

968
00:39:24,650 --> 00:39:22,320
seeing now what questions are they

969
00:39:26,510 --> 00:39:24,660
asking that are that you can tell oh a

970
00:39:28,010 --> 00:39:26,520
shift is happening here

971
00:39:30,349 --> 00:39:28,020
um and there is this sort of um

972
00:39:32,630 --> 00:39:30,359
interplay right between what we say is

973
00:39:35,150 --> 00:39:32,640
possible and then what people bring to

974
00:39:38,150 --> 00:39:35,160
the table offering as possible and that

975
00:39:41,750 --> 00:39:38,160
that stretches the possibility space

976
00:39:45,349 --> 00:39:41,760
I would say so I've been teaching since

977
00:39:46,790 --> 00:39:45,359
about 1990 so for almost a quarter of a

978
00:39:49,670 --> 00:39:46,800
century now

979
00:39:51,250 --> 00:39:49,680
and I've seen a lot of trans a lot of

980
00:39:53,089 --> 00:39:51,260
change and a lot of different

981
00:39:55,069 --> 00:39:53,099
generations of a lot of different

982
00:39:58,990 --> 00:39:55,079
students

983
00:40:02,569 --> 00:39:59,000
um 911 was devastating frankly

984
00:40:05,150 --> 00:40:02,579
uh the pandemic has been as much or more

985
00:40:08,270 --> 00:40:05,160
devastating

986
00:40:10,130 --> 00:40:08,280
um the present generation of of young

987
00:40:11,569 --> 00:40:10,140
people and I'm going to generalize here

988
00:40:14,210 --> 00:40:11,579
and they need to speak for themselves

989
00:40:16,430 --> 00:40:14,220
but I'm I'm just observing them as a an

990
00:40:17,870 --> 00:40:16,440
old guy you know

991
00:40:19,910 --> 00:40:17,880
um is

992
00:40:21,230 --> 00:40:19,920
one of despair

993
00:40:24,530 --> 00:40:21,240
frankly

994
00:40:27,050 --> 00:40:24,540
uh and a kind of a kind of nihilism I

995
00:40:30,349 --> 00:40:27,060
would describe it as nihilism

996
00:40:32,630 --> 00:40:30,359
um they don't see a shared cultural

997
00:40:36,530 --> 00:40:32,640
story that is

998
00:40:40,069 --> 00:40:36,540
uh positive uh and ecstatic and and

999
00:40:43,910 --> 00:40:40,079
Cosmic they see a lot of critiques all

1000
00:40:48,230 --> 00:40:43,920
of which are entirely convincing

1001
00:40:50,810 --> 00:40:48,240
and true and just and moral but all of

1002
00:40:54,650 --> 00:40:50,820
those critiques don't add up to any

1003
00:40:57,349 --> 00:40:54,660
positive vision for them

1004
00:41:01,430 --> 00:40:57,359
um and I think that's a huge

1005
00:41:04,370 --> 00:41:01,440
problem I I think my own tribe

1006
00:41:06,349 --> 00:41:04,380
um The Academy is very good at taking

1007
00:41:08,510 --> 00:41:06,359
things apart we can take anything apart

1008
00:41:11,210 --> 00:41:08,520
you want something taken apart come to

1009
00:41:13,910 --> 00:41:11,220
us we'll take it apart for you but we

1010
00:41:17,569 --> 00:41:13,920
are absolutely horrible at putting

1011
00:41:20,930 --> 00:41:17,579
things back together again we have no we

1012
00:41:23,990 --> 00:41:20,940
have no shared Vision we have no story

1013
00:41:26,329 --> 00:41:24,000
um and and the young people pick that up

1014
00:41:28,910 --> 00:41:26,339
very quickly

1015
00:41:31,010 --> 00:41:28,920
um and they know that from

1016
00:41:32,450 --> 00:41:31,020
their own youth their own teenage years

1017
00:41:34,970 --> 00:41:32,460
I mean they're they're in despair

1018
00:41:38,510 --> 00:41:34,980
they're and and if they're not in

1019
00:41:40,490 --> 00:41:38,520
despair they're completely indifferent

1020
00:41:42,230 --> 00:41:40,500
and they're just focusing on things like

1021
00:41:44,450 --> 00:41:42,240
how do I get a job and how do I make a

1022
00:41:46,670 --> 00:41:44,460
living and how do I find a maid and you

1023
00:41:47,990 --> 00:41:46,680
know just basic basic life challenges

1024
00:41:50,750 --> 00:41:48,000
they're not

1025
00:41:53,270 --> 00:41:50,760
if they think about these bigger bigger

1026
00:41:55,910 --> 00:41:53,280
life meaning issues they they will they

1027
00:41:57,950 --> 00:41:55,920
will find nothing

1028
00:42:00,349 --> 00:41:57,960
um so that that's I think where we're at

1029
00:42:04,310 --> 00:42:00,359
Nathan and and I think that's that's a

1030
00:42:06,710 --> 00:42:04,320
huge I see it as a huge problem

1031
00:42:08,630 --> 00:42:06,720
I I would like to I'm sorry Nathan if

1032
00:42:11,690 --> 00:42:08,640
you got to follow I just go ahead sir

1033
00:42:13,370 --> 00:42:11,700
well I I am a little curious in terms of

1034
00:42:15,430 --> 00:42:13,380
uh

1035
00:42:19,670 --> 00:42:15,440
the work that you've put into the world

1036
00:42:21,470 --> 00:42:19,680
archives the super Humanities uh mutes

1037
00:42:23,810 --> 00:42:21,480
and Mystics you know people that read

1038
00:42:26,990 --> 00:42:23,820
that material and want to study with you

1039
00:42:29,510 --> 00:42:27,000
want to you know what what kind of

1040
00:42:31,250 --> 00:42:29,520
research Avenues are they pursuing in

1041
00:42:34,910 --> 00:42:31,260
this space where are we pushing the the

1042
00:42:37,790 --> 00:42:34,920
content in other words yeah

1043
00:42:40,190 --> 00:42:37,800
so the reason I write books is because

1044
00:42:43,490 --> 00:42:40,200
they do work 24 hours a day all around

1045
00:42:46,730 --> 00:42:43,500
the world without my

1046
00:42:49,910 --> 00:42:46,740
without my attention or my ability I I'm

1047
00:42:52,190 --> 00:42:49,920
a I'm a really dull ordinary person I

1048
00:42:54,410 --> 00:42:52,200
need a certain amount of sleep and my

1049
00:42:56,690 --> 00:42:54,420
days are taken up with you know the same

1050
00:42:58,910 --> 00:42:56,700
things to take up everybody's days but

1051
00:43:01,430 --> 00:42:58,920
the books

1052
00:43:04,069 --> 00:43:01,440
um is really where my heart and mind are

1053
00:43:06,230 --> 00:43:04,079
their expressions of me and people are

1054
00:43:08,450 --> 00:43:06,240
reading those all over the world 24

1055
00:43:11,270 --> 00:43:08,460
hours a day as I said

1056
00:43:13,190 --> 00:43:11,280
um and I ca I can't even deal with the

1057
00:43:17,270 --> 00:43:13,200
responses because there's it's too many

1058
00:43:20,750 --> 00:43:17,280
there's it's too it's too much but

1059
00:43:23,450 --> 00:43:20,760
it's good it's good I think books are

1060
00:43:25,250 --> 00:43:23,460
are magical and I don't mean that in a a

1061
00:43:27,770 --> 00:43:25,260
metaphorical way I mean that in a real

1062
00:43:30,650 --> 00:43:27,780
way I think they authorize people's

1063
00:43:33,170 --> 00:43:30,660
experiences and they give people a way

1064
00:43:35,870 --> 00:43:33,180
to think about their experiences as a

1065
00:43:38,569 --> 00:43:35,880
teacher I know that when young people

1066
00:43:40,730 --> 00:43:38,579
come to me I'm not there to tell them

1067
00:43:43,250 --> 00:43:40,740
the truth of things I'm there to help

1068
00:43:45,069 --> 00:43:43,260
them articulate their own questions and

1069
00:43:47,930 --> 00:43:45,079
their own doubts and their own

1070
00:43:49,970 --> 00:43:47,940
convictions and they're often extremely

1071
00:43:50,930 --> 00:43:49,980
grateful for that

1072
00:43:52,790 --> 00:43:50,940
um

1073
00:43:54,890 --> 00:43:52,800
and I think the same is true of of

1074
00:43:58,730 --> 00:43:54,900
writing and Publishing you're you're

1075
00:44:01,309 --> 00:43:58,740
there the audience or the readership is

1076
00:44:03,650 --> 00:44:01,319
is really relating it to their own lives

1077
00:44:05,450 --> 00:44:03,660
at the end of the day

1078
00:44:08,990 --> 00:44:05,460
um so I think that's

1079
00:44:11,510 --> 00:44:09,000
certainly why I do what I do I the the

1080
00:44:13,609 --> 00:44:11,520
bigger message of I think what I do is

1081
00:44:16,370 --> 00:44:13,619
that we're in the beginning of a new

1082
00:44:18,410 --> 00:44:16,380
story and paranormal events are trying

1083
00:44:20,750 --> 00:44:18,420
to tell us little things about this

1084
00:44:22,609 --> 00:44:20,760
story and no we don't have that story

1085
00:44:25,370 --> 00:44:22,619
it's coming together it might take

1086
00:44:27,650 --> 00:44:25,380
Generations it might take centuries but

1087
00:44:30,890 --> 00:44:27,660
we're going to get to this this new

1088
00:44:32,809 --> 00:44:30,900
story and it's not going to be pretty

1089
00:44:34,730 --> 00:44:32,819
you know the older stories aren't going

1090
00:44:37,490 --> 00:44:34,740
to behave they're not just going to roll

1091
00:44:40,010 --> 00:44:37,500
over and give up they're going to keep

1092
00:44:42,050 --> 00:44:40,020
claiming their authority over us and

1093
00:44:45,050 --> 00:44:42,060
claiming that they're true and everybody

1094
00:44:47,089 --> 00:44:45,060
else is untrue and

1095
00:44:49,730 --> 00:44:47,099
you know that's just that's the way it

1096
00:44:52,130 --> 00:44:49,740
is that's the way it's always been

1097
00:44:54,710 --> 00:44:52,140
I I would argue that uh dull and

1098
00:44:57,530 --> 00:44:54,720
ordinary doesn't create uh these

1099
00:45:00,430 --> 00:44:57,540
writings that you have as part of you

1100
00:45:04,970 --> 00:45:02,930
you know I've these guys have heard me

1101
00:45:08,210 --> 00:45:04,980
say this before I believe the purpose of

1102
00:45:10,430 --> 00:45:08,220
artwork is to move emotion and that Mo

1103
00:45:12,770 --> 00:45:10,440
that artwork could be on stage it could

1104
00:45:14,510 --> 00:45:12,780
be on screen it could be in the written

1105
00:45:18,050 --> 00:45:14,520
form and it could be YouTube making

1106
00:45:19,970 --> 00:45:18,060
people cry uh because they're able to

1107
00:45:22,190 --> 00:45:19,980
and the Beatles right we're very

1108
00:45:23,930 --> 00:45:22,200
familiar with uh them able to move

1109
00:45:25,970 --> 00:45:23,940
emotion and what you're doing is is

1110
00:45:29,390 --> 00:45:25,980
really no different

1111
00:45:30,950 --> 00:45:29,400
um yeah I I joke about that I'll tell

1112
00:45:32,990 --> 00:45:30,960
you a funny story about the shirt or

1113
00:45:34,250 --> 00:45:33,000
shirts I I wear these shirts

1114
00:45:37,069 --> 00:45:34,260
intentionally

1115
00:45:38,630 --> 00:45:37,079
um I gave a talk once that again it was

1116
00:45:40,790 --> 00:45:38,640
at Arizona State for some reason this

1117
00:45:43,490 --> 00:45:40,800
was years ago and we beamed it all over

1118
00:45:45,650 --> 00:45:43,500
the world to get questions like you're

1119
00:45:46,910 --> 00:45:45,660
doing and we got one question and the

1120
00:45:49,730 --> 00:45:46,920
question is where do you get those

1121
00:45:51,650 --> 00:45:49,740
shirts and you know so I just answered I

1122
00:45:53,390 --> 00:45:51,660
said well it's a cross-security in Bush

1123
00:45:54,710 --> 00:45:53,400
Airport in Houston Texas and that was

1124
00:45:56,390 --> 00:45:54,720
the end that was the end of the Q a

1125
00:45:56,990 --> 00:45:56,400
session right there

1126
00:46:01,550 --> 00:45:57,000
um

1127
00:46:07,730 --> 00:46:04,849
I I do so I'm not banal and ordinary in

1128
00:46:09,589 --> 00:46:07,740
the sense that I take other people's

1129
00:46:12,890 --> 00:46:09,599
extraordinary experiences as actually

1130
00:46:14,750 --> 00:46:12,900
have happened as part of our world and

1131
00:46:16,849 --> 00:46:14,760
they are really extraordinary and I've

1132
00:46:19,790 --> 00:46:16,859
had a few myself which make me

1133
00:46:21,230 --> 00:46:19,800
sympathetic to those experiences but I

1134
00:46:23,390 --> 00:46:21,240
don't claim

1135
00:46:25,910 --> 00:46:23,400
you know any kind of special status and

1136
00:46:28,730 --> 00:46:25,920
that hence my my argument of being banal

1137
00:46:30,290 --> 00:46:28,740
and ordinary but I think just accepting

1138
00:46:33,230 --> 00:46:30,300
that these things happen and then trying

1139
00:46:37,609 --> 00:46:33,240
to integrate them into a culture or a or

1140
00:46:40,190 --> 00:46:37,619
a field or or or a personal life is is

1141
00:46:42,050 --> 00:46:40,200
it's really hard

1142
00:46:43,849 --> 00:46:42,060
um and and I think that's what we're all

1143
00:46:45,349 --> 00:46:43,859
what a lot of us are trying to do incl

1144
00:46:46,970 --> 00:46:45,359
including you all I think that's what

1145
00:46:48,890 --> 00:46:46,980
you're trying to do probably on this

1146
00:46:50,329 --> 00:46:48,900
podcast

1147
00:46:52,790 --> 00:46:50,339
um

1148
00:46:54,109 --> 00:46:52,800
so yeah the the you know I always have

1149
00:46:56,589 --> 00:46:54,119
this conversation with Whitley strieber

1150
00:46:59,329 --> 00:46:56,599
who by the way is a freaking

1151
00:47:02,150 --> 00:46:59,339
radioactive generator that that guy is

1152
00:47:04,670 --> 00:47:02,160
like I mean he is things happen around

1153
00:47:07,250 --> 00:47:04,680
him and you know I'm always joking with

1154
00:47:08,990 --> 00:47:07,260
him like Lily no I don't experience

1155
00:47:11,089 --> 00:47:09,000
these things this is not happening to me

1156
00:47:14,390 --> 00:47:11,099
this is happening to you this is

1157
00:47:15,890 --> 00:47:14,400
happening because of you and and uh so

1158
00:47:17,870 --> 00:47:15,900
there's you know there's that there's

1159
00:47:19,069 --> 00:47:17,880
that kind of playfulness but but I think

1160
00:47:23,089 --> 00:47:19,079
it's

1161
00:47:23,690 --> 00:47:23,099
I think the weirdness to to use

1162
00:47:26,809 --> 00:47:23,700
um

1163
00:47:28,849 --> 00:47:26,819
the weird studies colleagues language is

1164
00:47:31,190 --> 00:47:28,859
certainly in the in the books

1165
00:47:32,930 --> 00:47:31,200
and and and it's designed to be there

1166
00:47:35,270 --> 00:47:32,940
and it's designed to do things it's not

1167
00:47:38,030 --> 00:47:35,280
designed just to describe it's designed

1168
00:47:40,130 --> 00:47:38,040
to manifest the weird and not just talk

1169
00:47:42,470 --> 00:47:40,140
about it

1170
00:47:44,630 --> 00:47:42,480
I love it uh we're happy to sing your

1171
00:47:47,329 --> 00:47:44,640
Praises you don't have to so we we got

1172
00:47:48,589 --> 00:47:47,339
you covered on that let's go to uh uh

1173
00:47:51,170 --> 00:47:48,599
first of all I would just want to shout

1174
00:47:54,170 --> 00:47:51,180
out James iandoli who set this up for us

1175
00:47:57,290 --> 00:47:54,180
and always on cab we will shout out

1176
00:47:58,670 --> 00:47:57,300
people who help us get guests and we're

1177
00:48:00,170 --> 00:47:58,680
not trying to make the audience think

1178
00:48:02,690 --> 00:48:00,180
that we have the kind of reach where we

1179
00:48:05,569 --> 00:48:02,700
get anybody we rely on others and others

1180
00:48:08,630 --> 00:48:05,579
uh rely on us as well so thank you James

1181
00:48:11,210 --> 00:48:08,640
iandoli my New York Italian brother and

1182
00:48:14,630 --> 00:48:11,220
let's let's go with uh uh Debs please

1183
00:48:17,210 --> 00:48:14,640
yeah so I want to step back for a moment

1184
00:48:19,309 --> 00:48:17,220
on the despair comment I deal with youth

1185
00:48:21,530 --> 00:48:19,319
I've seen a lot of different I would say

1186
00:48:24,410 --> 00:48:21,540
incarnations of what's going on with

1187
00:48:26,569 --> 00:48:24,420
youth and on a positive note I feel like

1188
00:48:29,150 --> 00:48:26,579
they're out of we're done with that crap

1189
00:48:30,890 --> 00:48:29,160
mode of thinking and they're changing

1190
00:48:34,250 --> 00:48:30,900
things they're like and they're

1191
00:48:36,710 --> 00:48:34,260
accepting a lot of things as fact that

1192
00:48:38,750 --> 00:48:36,720
our his are people historically would

1193
00:48:40,370 --> 00:48:38,760
not have accepted like there's a lot of

1194
00:48:42,950 --> 00:48:40,380
conversations about the paranoid normal

1195
00:48:45,170 --> 00:48:42,960
and they're not freaking out and this is

1196
00:48:48,109 --> 00:48:45,180
just from what I've seen but

1197
00:48:49,730 --> 00:48:48,119
um I wanted to touch on the fact that I

1198
00:48:53,089 --> 00:48:49,740
see those youth in a mental health

1199
00:48:55,970 --> 00:48:53,099
capacity and you deal with a lot of

1200
00:48:58,250 --> 00:48:55,980
people who are experiencers and on a

1201
00:48:59,750 --> 00:48:58,260
personal note I like recently just had

1202
00:49:02,089 --> 00:48:59,760
like a whole bunch of what I would call

1203
00:49:03,829 --> 00:49:02,099
like downloads that kind of upset me

1204
00:49:05,630 --> 00:49:03,839
actually

1205
00:49:08,089 --> 00:49:05,640
um I would say that I got a little like

1206
00:49:11,390 --> 00:49:08,099
stressed out because it was happening so

1207
00:49:14,870 --> 00:49:11,400
quickly and what do you suggest to

1208
00:49:16,849 --> 00:49:14,880
people who are having sort of difficulty

1209
00:49:18,650 --> 00:49:16,859
with their mental health related to

1210
00:49:21,650 --> 00:49:18,660
their experiences what would you say

1211
00:49:24,349 --> 00:49:21,660
that they can do to accept or come to

1212
00:49:27,950 --> 00:49:24,359
terms with what's going on

1213
00:49:29,750 --> 00:49:27,960
so yeah I always say I always say one

1214
00:49:31,430 --> 00:49:29,760
thing here I

1215
00:49:35,210 --> 00:49:31,440
uh

1216
00:49:37,670 --> 00:49:35,220
I always say please be both and

1217
00:49:38,870 --> 00:49:37,680
and not either or in other words you

1218
00:49:42,109 --> 00:49:38,880
know

1219
00:49:45,349 --> 00:49:42,119
the Paranormal phenomena can and do

1220
00:49:48,470 --> 00:49:45,359
appear within mental illness

1221
00:49:51,170 --> 00:49:48,480
um consistently and commonly that's not

1222
00:49:52,970 --> 00:49:51,180
to romanticize or idolize the mental

1223
00:49:55,190 --> 00:49:52,980
illness but it's also not to deny the

1224
00:49:57,609 --> 00:49:55,200
Paranormal phenomena I think the

1225
00:50:01,069 --> 00:49:57,619
phenomena are are often symptomatic

1226
00:50:03,410 --> 00:50:01,079
they're signs of the breakdown

1227
00:50:05,809 --> 00:50:03,420
um and again because I see the body and

1228
00:50:08,990 --> 00:50:05,819
brain as a filter or reducer or

1229
00:50:11,329 --> 00:50:09,000
translator of Consciousness any way that

1230
00:50:14,030 --> 00:50:11,339
you can compromise or any way that that

1231
00:50:18,710 --> 00:50:14,040
body and brain is compromised is a

1232
00:50:20,230 --> 00:50:18,720
potential access point to the Paranormal

1233
00:50:22,970 --> 00:50:20,240
so

1234
00:50:26,030 --> 00:50:22,980
psychedelics can do that and do do that

1235
00:50:28,849 --> 00:50:26,040
mental illness can do that and does do

1236
00:50:31,150 --> 00:50:28,859
that so can your death experiences car

1237
00:50:33,530 --> 00:50:31,160
accidents heart attacks you know

1238
00:50:35,569 --> 00:50:33,540
meditation can do that if you do it long

1239
00:50:38,690 --> 00:50:35,579
enough and and with enough discipline

1240
00:50:41,690 --> 00:50:38,700
you have to somehow

1241
00:50:44,510 --> 00:50:41,700
um get past or or beyond the social ego

1242
00:50:46,069 --> 00:50:44,520
to to access these states but that does

1243
00:50:49,309 --> 00:50:46,079
not mean

1244
00:50:53,030 --> 00:50:49,319
that these states are are useful or

1245
00:50:54,470 --> 00:50:53,040
positive for the social ego

1246
00:50:57,109 --> 00:50:54,480
um and so again I think this is where

1247
00:50:59,150 --> 00:50:57,119
compassion and sympathy comes in

1248
00:51:00,470 --> 00:50:59,160
and where to go back to our first

1249
00:51:03,530 --> 00:51:00,480
question where the demonological

1250
00:51:06,230 --> 00:51:03,540
language is a real harm

1251
00:51:08,930 --> 00:51:06,240
um so you know my first piece of advice

1252
00:51:11,390 --> 00:51:08,940
was have compassion on yourself think in

1253
00:51:14,990 --> 00:51:11,400
terms of both and and find a therapist

1254
00:51:17,089 --> 00:51:15,000
who's who's sympathetic to these states

1255
00:51:20,809 --> 00:51:17,099
which I know is really hard that's

1256
00:51:22,670 --> 00:51:20,819
that's a really hard hard thing but I I

1257
00:51:26,150 --> 00:51:22,680
think there are I know there are such

1258
00:51:28,430 --> 00:51:26,160
therapists out there and uh so I would I

1259
00:51:30,109 --> 00:51:28,440
would I would seek out you know somebody

1260
00:51:32,930 --> 00:51:30,119
who's who's

1261
00:51:35,210 --> 00:51:32,940
into integration and and not demeaning

1262
00:51:36,670 --> 00:51:35,220
or dismissal Deb is one of those

1263
00:51:39,470 --> 00:51:36,680
therapists by the way

1264
00:51:41,510 --> 00:51:39,480
well there you go so Deb you're one of

1265
00:51:43,790 --> 00:51:41,520
them but I mean there are there are lots

1266
00:51:45,290 --> 00:51:43,800
of their psychotherapists like that and

1267
00:51:47,569 --> 00:51:45,300
particularly in the jungian community

1268
00:51:49,609 --> 00:51:47,579
I've found actually

1269
00:51:51,589 --> 00:51:49,619
um for a variety of historical reasons

1270
00:51:53,450 --> 00:51:51,599
but not not just restricted to the Union

1271
00:51:55,010 --> 00:51:53,460
Community

1272
00:51:56,630 --> 00:51:55,020
all right let's uh we we want to get

1273
00:51:58,370 --> 00:51:56,640
through we got three uh three more

1274
00:52:01,250 --> 00:51:58,380
questions so let's get in there with uh

1275
00:52:02,750 --> 00:52:01,260
Miss Leah Prime wonderful thank you

1276
00:52:04,970 --> 00:52:02,760
um this is actually a bit of a piggyback

1277
00:52:05,809 --> 00:52:04,980
on what has been discussed the last few

1278
00:52:07,069 --> 00:52:05,819
minutes

1279
00:52:09,230 --> 00:52:07,079
um I want to give a shout out to Jay

1280
00:52:11,990 --> 00:52:09,240
shank who I had up my Show recently to

1281
00:52:13,069 --> 00:52:12,000
discuss art as paranormal experience

1282
00:52:16,130 --> 00:52:13,079
um I loved what you guys were talking

1283
00:52:17,630 --> 00:52:16,140
about with music and art um so in the

1284
00:52:19,370 --> 00:52:17,640
trickster in the Paranormal Gregory

1285
00:52:21,230 --> 00:52:19,380
Hansen's book his analysis about

1286
00:52:23,270 --> 00:52:21,240
anti-structure argues that societies

1287
00:52:25,790 --> 00:52:23,280
move basically towards not having room

1288
00:52:27,290 --> 00:52:25,800
for spiritual experience and

1289
00:52:29,089 --> 00:52:27,300
simultaneously we're obviously in the

1290
00:52:30,109 --> 00:52:29,099
midst of this rise in spirituality and

1291
00:52:31,609 --> 00:52:30,119
in the middle of the Psychedelic

1292
00:52:33,410 --> 00:52:31,619
Renaissance

1293
00:52:35,390 --> 00:52:33,420
um and these two elements of course seem

1294
00:52:36,890 --> 00:52:35,400
to be refactoring people's ontologies on

1295
00:52:39,530 --> 00:52:36,900
scales that honestly especially

1296
00:52:40,790 --> 00:52:39,540
modernity are basically unprecedented so

1297
00:52:42,530 --> 00:52:40,800
I'm curious about what your thoughts are

1298
00:52:44,630 --> 00:52:42,540
on navigating the tension between the

1299
00:52:47,210 --> 00:52:44,640
demands of Modern Life capitalist life

1300
00:52:49,370 --> 00:52:47,220
quite frankly but also cultivating the

1301
00:52:50,870 --> 00:52:49,380
depths of spiritual experience

1302
00:52:52,370 --> 00:52:50,880
um this is much more like less of an

1303
00:52:55,910 --> 00:52:52,380
academic question and more of a personal

1304
00:52:58,010 --> 00:52:55,920
one yeah so a couple things

1305
00:53:00,290 --> 00:52:58,020
um so first of all I do think with

1306
00:53:02,750 --> 00:53:00,300
Hanson that the Paranormal is

1307
00:53:05,030 --> 00:53:02,760
trickster-like by nature

1308
00:53:08,030 --> 00:53:05,040
it's elusive

1309
00:53:09,530 --> 00:53:08,040
um and so when I hear people say

1310
00:53:11,569 --> 00:53:09,540
things like oh we're going to explain

1311
00:53:13,370 --> 00:53:11,579
this or we're going to find a cause I'm

1312
00:53:15,109 --> 00:53:13,380
just like no you're not

1313
00:53:17,390 --> 00:53:15,119
it's not going to happen

1314
00:53:20,329 --> 00:53:17,400
and

1315
00:53:22,849 --> 00:53:20,339
it shouldn't happen frankly because

1316
00:53:26,089 --> 00:53:22,859
whatever intelligence is beaming through

1317
00:53:28,670 --> 00:53:26,099
or speaking in these moments is not a a

1318
00:53:31,250 --> 00:53:28,680
cause or a mechanism it's it's a form of

1319
00:53:32,990 --> 00:53:31,260
intelligence or Consciousness so I do

1320
00:53:35,690 --> 00:53:33,000
think the elusive or trickster element

1321
00:53:39,710 --> 00:53:35,700
is is part of the or the Absurd element

1322
00:53:47,809 --> 00:53:43,670
I also Leah I also firmly think that

1323
00:53:50,089 --> 00:53:47,819
paranormal phenomena happen for a reason

1324
00:53:53,150 --> 00:53:50,099
they are trying to communicate to us

1325
00:53:55,250 --> 00:53:53,160
they're trying to speak some sign or

1326
00:53:57,530 --> 00:53:55,260
some message we often don't know what

1327
00:53:59,089 --> 00:53:57,540
that message or communication is but

1328
00:54:01,250 --> 00:53:59,099
that to ignore them is the wrong

1329
00:54:03,710 --> 00:54:01,260
response

1330
00:54:06,349 --> 00:54:03,720
um but I also think to believe them is

1331
00:54:08,510 --> 00:54:06,359
often the wrong response and and by that

1332
00:54:11,329 --> 00:54:08,520
I mean you know John kill used to say

1333
00:54:15,170 --> 00:54:11,339
belief is the enemy and

1334
00:54:17,210 --> 00:54:15,180
what he meant was be wary of the content

1335
00:54:20,329 --> 00:54:17,220
of the phenomena you're not denying the

1336
00:54:22,730 --> 00:54:20,339
phenomena happen you're just wary of the

1337
00:54:24,950 --> 00:54:22,740
content and you're holding back from

1338
00:54:26,569 --> 00:54:24,960
signing your name to whatever is

1339
00:54:29,210 --> 00:54:26,579
appearing

1340
00:54:32,829 --> 00:54:29,220
um and I think that's a really wise way

1341
00:54:34,970 --> 00:54:32,839
to integrate these things into into

1342
00:54:37,730 --> 00:54:34,980
ourselves I don't know about modern

1343
00:54:40,190 --> 00:54:37,740
culture I think capitalism and Science

1344
00:54:41,750 --> 00:54:40,200
and Technology are are pretty dismissive

1345
00:54:46,370 --> 00:54:41,760
and

1346
00:54:47,930 --> 00:54:46,380
to these things

1347
00:54:50,890 --> 00:54:47,940
um I also think we live in a spiritually

1348
00:54:53,329 --> 00:54:50,900
stupid uh culture

1349
00:54:55,250 --> 00:54:53,339
impoverished yeah it's completely

1350
00:54:58,790 --> 00:54:55,260
impoverished

1351
00:55:00,829 --> 00:54:58,800
um and that's not a I'm Not Looking Back

1352
00:55:02,750 --> 00:55:00,839
to some previous religious era as the

1353
00:55:04,490 --> 00:55:02,760
answer I don't think that's our answer I

1354
00:55:07,730 --> 00:55:04,500
think the way the way the answer is to

1355
00:55:10,730 --> 00:55:07,740
move forward and to not be so naive and

1356
00:55:12,290 --> 00:55:10,740
silly and stupid about these things

1357
00:55:14,870 --> 00:55:12,300
um but to do that you got to listen to

1358
00:55:17,270 --> 00:55:14,880
them and and you've got to read and

1359
00:55:21,410 --> 00:55:17,280
you've got to think and I think it takes

1360
00:55:25,609 --> 00:55:21,420
a lot of cultural change to do that

1361
00:55:27,770 --> 00:55:25,619
um so I I mean again this is why I think

1362
00:55:29,809 --> 00:55:27,780
people should read books frankly get off

1363
00:55:32,589 --> 00:55:29,819
the freaking internet get off yourself

1364
00:55:38,569 --> 00:55:36,470
look and and and and spend hours and

1365
00:55:41,569 --> 00:55:38,579
hours and hours with that other human

1366
00:55:43,309 --> 00:55:41,579
being who's probably spent five to ten

1367
00:55:45,890 --> 00:55:43,319
to twenty years thinking about this

1368
00:55:49,569 --> 00:55:45,900
topic yes you're not going to get that

1369
00:55:52,010 --> 00:55:49,579
in a in a on Twitter you're not gonna

1370
00:55:53,569 --> 00:55:52,020
I'm not going to get it on a TED Talk by

1371
00:55:56,750 --> 00:55:53,579
the way you're not gonna of course not

1372
00:55:59,030 --> 00:55:56,760
you you are going to get it through this

1373
00:56:02,329 --> 00:55:59,040
old-fashioned magical technology called

1374
00:56:03,530 --> 00:56:02,339
the book yes um and so I'm I'm a big

1375
00:56:04,849 --> 00:56:03,540
believer in that that might sound

1376
00:56:07,210 --> 00:56:04,859
old-fashioned

1377
00:56:10,670 --> 00:56:07,220
uh and don't read a book online either

1378
00:56:13,750 --> 00:56:10,680
yes thank you Jeff every word man

1379
00:56:19,549 --> 00:56:16,910
dude I am the librarian yes bookstore

1380
00:56:21,170 --> 00:56:19,559
you know so you know Leah so this is

1381
00:56:23,870 --> 00:56:21,180
significant so

1382
00:56:25,430 --> 00:56:23,880
our first donor the man who began our

1383
00:56:29,809 --> 00:56:25,440
Archives of the apostle was Jacques

1384
00:56:31,790 --> 00:56:29,819
filet and it took us about four or five

1385
00:56:33,589 --> 00:56:31,800
years to negotiate that gift which by

1386
00:56:36,170 --> 00:56:33,599
the way is on a moratorium so nobody

1387
00:56:38,329 --> 00:56:36,180
could look at it but

1388
00:56:40,549 --> 00:56:38,339
yeah but

1389
00:56:42,470 --> 00:56:40,559
what was so fascinating about Jacques

1390
00:56:45,589 --> 00:56:42,480
was he had what I would call a

1391
00:56:48,650 --> 00:56:45,599
psychometric view of archives

1392
00:56:51,230 --> 00:56:48,660
and by by that I mean psychometry is

1393
00:56:53,809 --> 00:56:51,240
this this technique where a psychic will

1394
00:56:56,390 --> 00:56:53,819
hold a scar for a piece of clothing of a

1395
00:56:58,010 --> 00:56:56,400
of a person and be able to read off what

1396
00:57:01,490 --> 00:56:58,020
has happened to that particular person

1397
00:57:02,809 --> 00:57:01,500
so Jacques really I think feels and

1398
00:57:05,870 --> 00:57:02,819
thinks

1399
00:57:08,089 --> 00:57:05,880
that material objects carry

1400
00:57:10,849 --> 00:57:08,099
the intentions or the the consciousness

1401
00:57:12,470 --> 00:57:10,859
of the people who produce them and so

1402
00:57:13,790 --> 00:57:12,480
his archives it's actually filled with

1403
00:57:16,790 --> 00:57:13,800
letters

1404
00:57:20,089 --> 00:57:16,800
and case files that he of course himself

1405
00:57:22,670 --> 00:57:20,099
handled for decades and he thinks that

1406
00:57:25,309 --> 00:57:22,680
there's something really special about

1407
00:57:28,130 --> 00:57:25,319
these physical objects

1408
00:57:29,930 --> 00:57:28,140
and and the archivist rights as well

1409
00:57:32,470 --> 00:57:29,940
they're actually not interested in

1410
00:57:35,270 --> 00:57:32,480
collecting books in particular because

1411
00:57:38,270 --> 00:57:35,280
you know anybody can get a book on eBay

1412
00:57:40,309 --> 00:57:38,280
or something or eight books but they're

1413
00:57:43,490 --> 00:57:40,319
what they're really interested in is

1414
00:57:44,870 --> 00:57:43,500
rare items that don't exist anywhere

1415
00:57:48,530 --> 00:57:44,880
else in the world you know people's

1416
00:57:50,329 --> 00:57:48,540
papers people yes

1417
00:57:52,250 --> 00:57:50,339
I'll tell you what I just want to say to

1418
00:57:55,069 --> 00:57:52,260
the audience out there we will announce

1419
00:57:57,710 --> 00:57:55,079
the winner of the free Pat all event

1420
00:58:00,530 --> 00:57:57,720
passes uh at the at the end of the show

1421
00:58:02,510 --> 00:58:00,540
Nathan will check the DMS and and let us

1422
00:58:04,370 --> 00:58:02,520
know who won we'll announce it here and

1423
00:58:06,349 --> 00:58:04,380
then obviously we'll contact you

1424
00:58:07,910 --> 00:58:06,359
individually and let you know that

1425
00:58:10,250 --> 00:58:07,920
you're going to be going to see Kelly

1426
00:58:12,290 --> 00:58:10,260
Chase up in Ohio and all these speakers

1427
00:58:14,329 --> 00:58:12,300
it's going to be awesome plus you're

1428
00:58:16,130 --> 00:58:14,339
going to see money Nathan there uh he

1429
00:58:18,890 --> 00:58:16,140
may do a couple announcements on stage

1430
00:58:20,809 --> 00:58:18,900
and EXO Academia and Company so and I

1431
00:58:23,630 --> 00:58:20,819
might even be there I don't know

1432
00:58:26,329 --> 00:58:23,640
um so anyway

1433
00:58:29,349 --> 00:58:26,339
um let's press on with uh Mr Matt nap

1434
00:58:33,410 --> 00:58:31,250
you know you touched on something

1435
00:58:35,650 --> 00:58:33,420
earlier uh

1436
00:58:38,630 --> 00:58:35,660
with the comment about Whitley being

1437
00:58:41,510 --> 00:58:38,640
this you know radioact radioactive

1438
00:58:43,490 --> 00:58:41,520
producer uh having things happen around

1439
00:58:47,329 --> 00:58:43,500
him all the time

1440
00:58:52,430 --> 00:58:47,339
I grew up uh experiencing things at a

1441
00:58:54,730 --> 00:58:52,440
very early age uh to the point where

1442
00:58:57,650 --> 00:58:54,740
anytime I tried to share it

1443
00:58:59,270 --> 00:58:57,660
and quite frankly I was trying to reach

1444
00:59:01,609 --> 00:58:59,280
out to people because I was afraid of

1445
00:59:03,349 --> 00:59:01,619
what was happening to me I was very

1446
00:59:05,510 --> 00:59:03,359
young experiencing these things and

1447
00:59:06,829 --> 00:59:05,520
trying to understand them with a child's

1448
00:59:10,730 --> 00:59:06,839
mind

1449
00:59:13,430 --> 00:59:10,740
and uh it forced me away from it uh you

1450
00:59:17,390 --> 00:59:13,440
know I retreated I avoided it and

1451
00:59:19,010 --> 00:59:17,400
perhaps that's why uh whenever I found

1452
00:59:21,410 --> 00:59:19,020
myself in the field of Bigfoot

1453
00:59:23,329 --> 00:59:21,420
encrypteds I kind of latched on to it

1454
00:59:25,670 --> 00:59:23,339
because this was an opportunity where

1455
00:59:28,250 --> 00:59:25,680
there are tracks look I can show you

1456
00:59:30,589 --> 00:59:28,260
this was here yeah I was able to

1457
00:59:33,170 --> 00:59:30,599
somewhat prove it and support you know

1458
00:59:34,609 --> 00:59:33,180
my claims and find community and

1459
00:59:38,750 --> 00:59:34,619
everything else which

1460
00:59:41,210 --> 00:59:38,760
I think draws a lot of experiences or

1461
00:59:43,309 --> 00:59:41,220
whatever you want to call people who go

1462
00:59:46,250 --> 00:59:43,319
through these things uh searching for

1463
00:59:49,789 --> 00:59:46,260
that community of belief

1464
00:59:52,069 --> 00:59:49,799
why do you think some people

1465
00:59:54,010 --> 00:59:52,079
are these conduits like this where they

1466
00:59:56,390 --> 00:59:54,020
do experience things all the time

1467
01:00:01,490 --> 00:59:56,400
whereas you have other people who might

1468
01:00:03,049 --> 01:00:01,500
experience one or nothing in their life

1469
01:00:05,870 --> 01:00:03,059
so okay

1470
01:00:11,210 --> 01:00:08,450
I have a kind of philosophical answer it

1471
01:00:13,490 --> 01:00:11,220
goes back to this filter thesis that I

1472
01:00:16,190 --> 01:00:13,500
was talking about Matt you know where

1473
01:00:18,349 --> 01:00:16,200
the body in the brain is is a receiver

1474
01:00:20,210 --> 01:00:18,359
or a reducer or translator of

1475
01:00:23,210 --> 01:00:20,220
Consciousness is not a producer

1476
01:00:25,970 --> 01:00:23,220
and the basic answer which comes out of

1477
01:00:26,990 --> 01:00:25,980
modern philosophy a man named Charles

1478
01:00:29,150 --> 01:00:27,000
Taylor

1479
01:00:31,250 --> 01:00:29,160
but also people like Barbara Newman

1480
01:00:34,130 --> 01:00:31,260
again the medievalist is I think modern

1481
01:00:37,849 --> 01:00:34,140
people are just thicker

1482
01:00:39,589 --> 01:00:37,859
um and and less porous than uh medieval

1483
01:00:41,990 --> 01:00:39,599
people or or perhaps people from other

1484
01:00:44,809 --> 01:00:42,000
cultures who have not been conditioned

1485
01:00:46,849 --> 01:00:44,819
and socialized into the fear and the

1486
01:00:49,849 --> 01:00:46,859
denial that you spoke about so

1487
01:00:51,890 --> 01:00:49,859
eloquently I mean you you were once very

1488
01:00:54,289 --> 01:00:51,900
porous and then you learned not to be

1489
01:00:56,329 --> 01:00:54,299
because you learned that your family or

1490
01:00:58,309 --> 01:00:56,339
your your surrounding culture was not

1491
01:01:02,030 --> 01:00:58,319
and so I just think we're a lot less

1492
01:01:05,089 --> 01:01:02,040
porous uh and a lot less permeable than

1493
01:01:07,970 --> 01:01:05,099
than we used to be but I do think we're

1494
01:01:11,329 --> 01:01:07,980
also very different and that some people

1495
01:01:13,370 --> 01:01:11,339
are porous and permeable for sometimes

1496
01:01:15,530 --> 01:01:13,380
psychological or social reasons

1497
01:01:17,450 --> 01:01:15,540
sometimes we often because of trauma by

1498
01:01:20,870 --> 01:01:17,460
the way

1499
01:01:24,349 --> 01:01:20,880
um and that they learn to turn the

1500
01:01:27,049 --> 01:01:24,359
trauma into something positive or not

1501
01:01:28,730 --> 01:01:27,059
you know when when I sit down with an

1502
01:01:33,289 --> 01:01:28,740
experiencer there's actually two things

1503
01:01:35,930 --> 01:01:33,299
that I'm listening for one is trauma

1504
01:01:39,950 --> 01:01:35,940
which almost always comes out eventually

1505
01:01:41,690 --> 01:01:39,960
and the other is sexuality which also

1506
01:01:45,069 --> 01:01:41,700
almost always comes out

1507
01:01:48,710 --> 01:01:45,079
and so I think these are the two

1508
01:01:51,530 --> 01:01:48,720
uh they're not they're not portals but

1509
01:01:55,010 --> 01:01:51,540
they're they kind of are portals of of

1510
01:01:57,170 --> 01:01:55,020
of these experiences and and I also

1511
01:01:59,510 --> 01:01:57,180
think this is why

1512
01:02:01,670 --> 01:01:59,520
people who inhabit sexualities and

1513
01:02:03,950 --> 01:02:01,680
genders that are not normative are often

1514
01:02:06,289 --> 01:02:03,960
much more open to this frankly because

1515
01:02:08,630 --> 01:02:06,299
they're often they're often more porous

1516
01:02:10,730 --> 01:02:08,640
or permeable or you know open to these

1517
01:02:11,450 --> 01:02:10,740
other realities

1518
01:02:13,670 --> 01:02:11,460
um

1519
01:02:14,750 --> 01:02:13,680
so I think that's that's a big part of

1520
01:02:16,490 --> 01:02:14,760
it

1521
01:02:18,470 --> 01:02:16,500
um and I think the you finding the

1522
01:02:19,970 --> 01:02:18,480
Cryptid Community you know you were

1523
01:02:22,789 --> 01:02:19,980
naturally probably drawn to that because

1524
01:02:26,089 --> 01:02:22,799
you were trying to integrate these

1525
01:02:28,549 --> 01:02:26,099
experiences you had as a small boy that

1526
01:02:31,309 --> 01:02:28,559
were then you know repressed Again by by

1527
01:02:38,030 --> 01:02:34,010
and I think that is an amazing answer I

1528
01:02:40,670 --> 01:02:38,040
know why people cry now exactly he moved

1529
01:02:43,910 --> 01:02:40,680
he moves emotion right his artwork moves

1530
01:02:44,870 --> 01:02:43,920
emotion yeah well emotion's a big part

1531
01:02:47,390 --> 01:02:44,880
of this

1532
01:02:48,770 --> 01:02:47,400
you know I mean I think

1533
01:02:51,049 --> 01:02:48,780
um

1534
01:02:54,289 --> 01:02:51,059
I think people do cry because they they

1535
01:02:56,870 --> 01:02:54,299
open up you know and and it's like oh my

1536
01:02:58,490 --> 01:02:56,880
God that makes so much sense and you

1537
01:03:00,049 --> 01:02:58,500
know then then and again that's what I

1538
01:03:02,450 --> 01:03:00,059
said about being a teacher or a writer

1539
01:03:04,430 --> 01:03:02,460
you're really just giving people a

1540
01:03:05,990 --> 01:03:04,440
vocabulary and a way of thinking that

1541
01:03:08,089 --> 01:03:06,000
that makes sense to them you're not

1542
01:03:10,309 --> 01:03:08,099
you're not I'm not proclaiming some

1543
01:03:13,309 --> 01:03:10,319
truth I have that you don't

1544
01:03:15,289 --> 01:03:13,319
well earlier DJ mentioned not knowing

1545
01:03:17,210 --> 01:03:15,299
where feelings come from emotion not

1546
01:03:18,710 --> 01:03:17,220
being able to explain it and everything

1547
01:03:20,930 --> 01:03:18,720
you're talking about

1548
01:03:24,710 --> 01:03:20,940
exists in that Realm

1549
01:03:27,829 --> 01:03:24,720
of human beings uh feelings and emotions

1550
01:03:29,930 --> 01:03:27,839
and things like that creativity all

1551
01:03:32,870 --> 01:03:29,940
those things to me come from the same

1552
01:03:35,750 --> 01:03:32,880
place and I definitely see the

1553
01:03:38,990 --> 01:03:35,760
correlation between that aspect of Being

1554
01:03:41,329 --> 01:03:39,000
Human and the realm of the Paranormal

1555
01:03:43,849 --> 01:03:41,339
and things of that nature just this is

1556
01:03:45,530 --> 01:03:43,859
why I get so upset with the debunking

1557
01:03:47,390 --> 01:03:45,540
community you know they'll say really

1558
01:03:49,190 --> 01:03:47,400
stupid things like well you can't

1559
01:03:53,089 --> 01:03:49,200
produce this in a laboratory therefore

1560
01:03:55,069 --> 01:03:53,099
it's not real preach and I'm like well

1561
01:03:57,010 --> 01:03:55,079
you can't produce it in the laboratory

1562
01:04:00,829 --> 01:03:57,020
because the laboratory makes it go away

1563
01:04:03,230 --> 01:04:00,839
you know and you know I always point to

1564
01:04:06,530 --> 01:04:03,240
the coinage of the word telepathy

1565
01:04:08,150 --> 01:04:06,540
uh which was coined by a a classicist by

1566
01:04:11,329 --> 01:04:08,160
the way a reader of Greek and Latin

1567
01:04:13,609 --> 01:04:11,339
named Frederick Myers and and 1882 and

1568
01:04:16,430 --> 01:04:13,619
it means pathos

1569
01:04:20,890 --> 01:04:16,440
at a distance that's what it means

1570
01:04:23,809 --> 01:04:20,900
and he related it to to Eros or to love

1571
01:04:26,569 --> 01:04:23,819
and you know Meyer's argument was

1572
01:04:30,170 --> 01:04:26,579
actually what's going on here is too

1573
01:04:31,849 --> 01:04:30,180
emotionally untangled people are

1574
01:04:34,309 --> 01:04:31,859
communicating on levels that they're not

1575
01:04:35,990 --> 01:04:34,319
even aware of and I'm just going to call

1576
01:04:39,289 --> 01:04:36,000
this telepathy but we don't actually

1577
01:04:40,730 --> 01:04:39,299
know what it is and so I think this is

1578
01:04:43,250 --> 01:04:40,740
kind of the beginning of this kind of

1579
01:04:46,010 --> 01:04:43,260
language but it it affirms the role of

1580
01:04:50,089 --> 01:04:46,020
emotion and and frankly love

1581
01:04:51,530 --> 01:04:50,099
uh uh early on that just goes over the

1582
01:04:53,450 --> 01:04:51,540
heads of

1583
01:04:54,770 --> 01:04:53,460
a lot of people today they you know they

1584
01:04:57,170 --> 01:04:54,780
think it's about winning money on the

1585
01:04:59,030 --> 01:04:57,180
stock market or predicting what's going

1586
01:05:01,430 --> 01:04:59,040
to appear on a deck of cards or

1587
01:05:03,049 --> 01:05:01,440
something and I'm just like that is not

1588
01:05:04,609 --> 01:05:03,059
what this is about

1589
01:05:07,130 --> 01:05:04,619
well the first thing science does is

1590
01:05:10,309 --> 01:05:07,140
remove emotion from the equation I know

1591
01:05:12,650 --> 01:05:10,319
and that's why they deny this exists you

1592
01:05:14,270 --> 01:05:12,660
know that my argument is what you are

1593
01:05:17,089 --> 01:05:14,280
doing is you're going to the North Pole

1594
01:05:19,490 --> 01:05:17,099
to prove the existence of zebras

1595
01:05:22,010 --> 01:05:19,500
and guess what you're not going to find

1596
01:05:23,390 --> 01:05:22,020
any zebras on the North Pole and

1597
01:05:27,530 --> 01:05:23,400
therefore you're going to say there are

1598
01:05:32,170 --> 01:05:27,540
no zebras that doesn't follow folks you

1599
01:05:35,210 --> 01:05:32,180
you are removing the very context

1600
01:05:37,010 --> 01:05:35,220
that Express these phenomena

1601
01:05:39,170 --> 01:05:37,020
if you want to know where these what

1602
01:05:42,530 --> 01:05:39,180
these phenomena are go to where they

1603
01:05:46,069 --> 01:05:42,540
appear which is in suffering traumatized

1604
01:05:48,530 --> 01:05:46,079
sick and dying human or people in crisis

1605
01:05:50,930 --> 01:05:48,540
people in transition

1606
01:05:52,609 --> 01:05:50,940
um and of course no IRB or institutional

1607
01:05:54,410 --> 01:05:52,619
review board at a university is going to

1608
01:05:57,289 --> 01:05:54,420
approve that by the way you you actually

1609
01:05:59,750 --> 01:05:57,299
can't kill people or or make them sick

1610
01:06:00,470 --> 01:05:59,760
to to study them

1611
01:06:03,589 --> 01:06:00,480
um

1612
01:06:05,510 --> 01:06:03,599
you you just can't and so and so this

1613
01:06:07,970 --> 01:06:05,520
stuff is is um

1614
01:06:09,770 --> 01:06:07,980
becomes impossible you know that's again

1615
01:06:12,289 --> 01:06:09,780
that's why I use the phrase

1616
01:06:14,930 --> 01:06:12,299
apparently Sean Feeney was able to find

1617
01:06:17,630 --> 01:06:14,940
zebras and and icebergs he just placed

1618
01:06:19,730 --> 01:06:17,640
them on the screen for us thank you Sean

1619
01:06:21,710 --> 01:06:19,740
um anyway I love that analogy I love

1620
01:06:24,109 --> 01:06:21,720
everything about that it's beautiful

1621
01:06:26,210 --> 01:06:24,119
um let's get in Frank there

1622
01:06:28,849 --> 01:06:26,220
um please go ahead Frank

1623
01:06:31,549 --> 01:06:28,859
yeah so Leah mentioned that you you

1624
01:06:32,990 --> 01:06:31,559
spoke about this on a podcast so please

1625
01:06:35,029 --> 01:06:33,000
send me a link to that later because I'd

1626
01:06:37,490 --> 01:06:35,039
really love to hear they say the same

1627
01:06:39,230 --> 01:06:37,500
thing over and over again I joke with

1628
01:06:42,109 --> 01:06:39,240
people look I have five stories and I've

1629
01:06:44,690 --> 01:06:42,119
told you four of them so just

1630
01:06:47,089 --> 01:06:44,700
you know be patient with me I'm going to

1631
01:06:48,950 --> 01:06:47,099
repeat yeah well I hope you don't mind

1632
01:06:52,730 --> 01:06:48,960
talking about this a little bit here too

1633
01:06:54,950 --> 01:06:52,740
so I I'm a a musician and I've often

1634
01:06:57,770 --> 01:06:54,960
wondered you know what it is that that

1635
01:06:59,809 --> 01:06:57,780
people connect with about music or art

1636
01:07:01,490 --> 01:06:59,819
or you know a beautiful building or

1637
01:07:04,130 --> 01:07:01,500
whatever it might be because there's

1638
01:07:07,309 --> 01:07:04,140
that kind of deep connection that people

1639
01:07:08,690 --> 01:07:07,319
feel that almost goes beyond normal you

1640
01:07:10,970 --> 01:07:08,700
know and there's also that kind of

1641
01:07:12,950 --> 01:07:10,980
question of where creative ideas come

1642
01:07:15,370 --> 01:07:12,960
from because they can often seem like

1643
01:07:17,329 --> 01:07:15,380
what people refer to as a as a download

1644
01:07:18,829 --> 01:07:17,339
so I wondered you know do you think

1645
01:07:21,589 --> 01:07:18,839
there is some connection there between

1646
01:07:23,870 --> 01:07:21,599
these creative imaginative artistic

1647
01:07:26,690 --> 01:07:23,880
ideas and the the Paranormal sort of

1648
01:07:28,970 --> 01:07:26,700
aspects of our reality oh absolutely

1649
01:07:31,309 --> 01:07:28,980
right again that's what mutants and

1650
01:07:34,730 --> 01:07:31,319
Mystics is all about it's it's it's a

1651
01:07:37,190 --> 01:07:34,740
it's a study of creativity and art as a

1652
01:07:40,609 --> 01:07:37,200
as a as a means to express these kinds

1653
01:07:42,890 --> 01:07:40,619
of experiences and the power of art is

1654
01:07:44,870 --> 01:07:42,900
that you don't need to prove anything

1655
01:07:46,250 --> 01:07:44,880
right you're not doing this you're not

1656
01:07:48,470 --> 01:07:46,260
turning this into a science you're

1657
01:07:50,329 --> 01:07:48,480
turning this into an art form and the

1658
01:07:52,370 --> 01:07:50,339
thing about music

1659
01:07:54,589 --> 01:07:52,380
which I'm not

1660
01:07:56,270 --> 01:07:54,599
I'm not an expert on I often joke there

1661
01:07:59,470 --> 01:07:56,280
were only two classes in the Seminary I

1662
01:08:03,289 --> 01:07:59,480
got C's in one was Christian ethics

1663
01:08:06,170 --> 01:08:03,299
and the other was musicology uh I just I

1664
01:08:10,309 --> 01:08:06,180
suck at both of those things and um

1665
01:08:15,470 --> 01:08:10,319
but music is basically math

1666
01:08:16,849 --> 01:08:15,480
uh and it's entirely non-linguistic

1667
01:08:20,749 --> 01:08:16,859
um you know and so I think people

1668
01:08:22,910 --> 01:08:20,759
respond to it on a very bodily and very

1669
01:08:26,269 --> 01:08:22,920
spiritual level precisely because it

1670
01:08:30,410 --> 01:08:26,279
goes entirely outside our rational kind

1671
01:08:33,110 --> 01:08:30,420
of linear linguistic forms of expression

1672
01:08:35,150 --> 01:08:33,120
um so I think music and you know for

1673
01:08:37,430 --> 01:08:35,160
most of the history of religions it was

1674
01:08:40,070 --> 01:08:37,440
expressed through music Frank

1675
01:08:43,269 --> 01:08:40,080
I mean that's how they did it music and

1676
01:08:46,789 --> 01:08:43,279
art by the way people couldn't read

1677
01:08:48,590 --> 01:08:46,799
ing is a very modern kind of skill set

1678
01:08:51,050 --> 01:08:48,600
you know in terms of being widely

1679
01:08:53,450 --> 01:08:51,060
distributed but people could could view

1680
01:08:56,809 --> 01:08:53,460
art and they could listen to music and

1681
01:09:00,910 --> 01:08:56,819
that's how they uh absorb these stories

1682
01:09:04,010 --> 01:09:00,920
and and became the humans they became

1683
01:09:05,749 --> 01:09:04,020
I I love it these questions today have

1684
01:09:08,990 --> 01:09:05,759
been uh something else

1685
01:09:11,570 --> 01:09:09,000
um uh I sure Nathan feels the same thing

1686
01:09:13,910 --> 01:09:11,580
I do right now that not only are we

1687
01:09:15,709 --> 01:09:13,920
honored to have you on and and have a

1688
01:09:19,070 --> 01:09:15,719
discussion with us we're equally honored

1689
01:09:20,930 --> 01:09:19,080
to have a team like this that put so

1690
01:09:24,050 --> 01:09:20,940
much thought into what they would

1691
01:09:28,010 --> 01:09:24,060
discuss with you uh that uh I'm feeling

1692
01:09:30,950 --> 01:09:28,020
that emotion right now uh anyway so uh

1693
01:09:33,050 --> 01:09:30,960
we I don't want to keep you uh more than

1694
01:09:36,050 --> 01:09:33,060
an hour uh Dan Warren did have another

1695
01:09:37,370 --> 01:09:36,060
question that we know that I know what

1696
01:09:39,229 --> 01:09:37,380
your answer is going to be on this

1697
01:09:41,510 --> 01:09:39,239
because you've basically alluded to it

1698
01:09:43,610 --> 01:09:41,520
but he he gave me an article from the

1699
01:09:45,650 --> 01:09:43,620
Atlanta that says Pope Francis said that

1700
01:09:48,229 --> 01:09:45,660
he would definitely baptize aliens if

1701
01:09:50,510 --> 01:09:48,239
they asked him to so he wanted to get

1702
01:09:52,430 --> 01:09:50,520
your reaction to that well this this

1703
01:09:54,350 --> 01:09:52,440
question came up Thursday night you know

1704
01:09:56,689 --> 01:09:54,360
brother consumonia actually wrote a book

1705
01:10:00,830 --> 01:09:56,699
called something like should we baptize

1706
01:10:02,990 --> 01:10:00,840
the ET and you know my answer is no the

1707
01:10:03,970 --> 01:10:03,000
ET does not need to be baptized that I

1708
01:10:07,490 --> 01:10:03,980
mean

1709
01:10:10,430 --> 01:10:07,500
these are human religions these are not

1710
01:10:11,930 --> 01:10:10,440
Cosmic religions and the first thing you

1711
01:10:14,689 --> 01:10:11,940
learn as a comparativist is actually

1712
01:10:17,570 --> 01:10:14,699
they're not even human they're just one

1713
01:10:18,950 --> 01:10:17,580
culture cultural's approximation of

1714
01:10:21,950 --> 01:10:18,960
something

1715
01:10:23,930 --> 01:10:21,960
um you know so no don't don't baptize

1716
01:10:26,209 --> 01:10:23,940
the E.T

1717
01:10:28,310 --> 01:10:26,219
um it doesn't need to be

1718
01:10:30,770 --> 01:10:28,320
um and and that's an imposition frankly

1719
01:10:33,530 --> 01:10:30,780
of one cultural story on another species

1720
01:10:35,709 --> 01:10:33,540
that is totally inappropriate Nathan's

1721
01:10:40,310 --> 01:10:35,719
going hey man right now

1722
01:10:41,870 --> 01:10:40,320
uh as a fellow seminarian um so it a

1723
01:10:43,310 --> 01:10:41,880
couple of quick hitter follow-ups on

1724
01:10:44,930 --> 01:10:43,320
something you said when you were talking

1725
01:10:47,689 --> 01:10:44,940
about the nihilism you're talking about

1726
01:10:50,330 --> 01:10:47,699
the state of the students today is that

1727
01:10:53,390 --> 01:10:50,340
rooted in our cultural divide in that

1728
01:10:56,270 --> 01:10:53,400
red white political crap is that the

1729
01:10:58,189 --> 01:10:56,280
root of it or is it deeper I think it's

1730
01:11:00,470 --> 01:10:58,199
part of it I think that's part of it but

1731
01:11:01,970 --> 01:11:00,480
I also think Science and Technology are

1732
01:11:04,790 --> 01:11:01,980
part of the problem

1733
01:11:08,090 --> 01:11:04,800
I mean they give us so much I I'm not

1734
01:11:11,090 --> 01:11:08,100
anti-science or anti-technology but the

1735
01:11:14,330 --> 01:11:11,100
the the the the world view they push is

1736
01:11:16,910 --> 01:11:14,340
pretty nihilistic you know

1737
01:11:18,470 --> 01:11:16,920
um and you know my joke is always we can

1738
01:11:20,160 --> 01:11:18,480
build refrigerators therefore

1739
01:11:25,669 --> 01:11:20,170
materialism is true

1740
01:11:30,590 --> 01:11:27,590
it's funny because it doesn't follow at

1741
01:11:32,750 --> 01:11:30,600
all but that's that's what people assume

1742
01:11:35,330 --> 01:11:32,760
they assume oh because we can make

1743
01:11:37,370 --> 01:11:35,340
technology and we have science

1744
01:11:41,209 --> 01:11:37,380
um materialism must be true and I'm like

1745
01:11:42,669 --> 01:11:41,219
no it's pragmatic it's pragmatically

1746
01:11:45,050 --> 01:11:42,679
true

1747
01:11:47,030 --> 01:11:45,060
but there are all kinds of other things

1748
01:11:48,890 --> 01:11:47,040
that happen that don't fit into this

1749
01:11:50,630 --> 01:11:48,900
materialist Paradigm and you're just

1750
01:11:53,090 --> 01:11:50,640
ignoring they're it's not your

1751
01:11:56,390 --> 01:11:53,100
refrigerator it's quite it's quite

1752
01:11:58,790 --> 01:11:56,400
convenient uh yeah I've got some another

1753
01:12:00,470 --> 01:11:58,800
follow-up on um what you said in the

1754
01:12:04,729 --> 01:12:00,480
beginning after the first question is

1755
01:12:07,310 --> 01:12:04,739
just uh The Possession issue you seem to

1756
01:12:11,090 --> 01:12:07,320
be indicating that it is a reflection of

1757
01:12:12,890 --> 01:12:11,100
us to a degree because we and you know

1758
01:12:15,229 --> 01:12:12,900
we form a union with it that's what

1759
01:12:16,910 --> 01:12:15,239
allows it you have to allow it in the

1760
01:12:18,649 --> 01:12:16,920
second part of that that I want to add

1761
01:12:20,810 --> 01:12:18,659
and again I don't want to take up too

1762
01:12:23,750 --> 01:12:20,820
much of your time today

1763
01:12:26,450 --> 01:12:23,760
um but is uh

1764
01:12:28,790 --> 01:12:26,460
is there an nhi is there a non-human

1765
01:12:30,290 --> 01:12:28,800
intelligence do you think that that is

1766
01:12:32,689 --> 01:12:30,300
part of that

1767
01:12:36,169 --> 01:12:32,699
I think it could be superhuman

1768
01:12:38,750 --> 01:12:36,179
and what I mean by that is it's clearly

1769
01:12:41,750 --> 01:12:38,760
communicating with this so it it clearly

1770
01:12:44,149 --> 01:12:41,760
shares something with us and I I think

1771
01:12:47,090 --> 01:12:44,159
sometimes it is us I think it's some

1772
01:12:49,370 --> 01:12:47,100
dissociated or sets or part of us that

1773
01:12:51,229 --> 01:12:49,380
has been separated off because of trauma

1774
01:12:52,850 --> 01:12:51,239
and suffering or what a psychiatrists

1775
01:12:55,189 --> 01:12:52,860
are called dissociation

1776
01:12:57,649 --> 01:12:55,199
but I think sometimes it might be the

1777
01:13:00,350 --> 01:12:57,659
world of the Dead frankly it might be an

1778
01:13:02,570 --> 01:13:00,360
ancestor it might be some kind of

1779
01:13:04,669 --> 01:13:02,580
superhuman intelligence but by which I

1780
01:13:06,350 --> 01:13:04,679
simply mean it's it's outside or Beyond

1781
01:13:13,189 --> 01:13:06,360
us

1782
01:13:15,649 --> 01:13:13,199
don't mean to suggest there's nothing

1783
01:13:17,390 --> 01:13:15,659
ontologically separate from us of course

1784
01:13:20,149 --> 01:13:17,400
there is

1785
01:13:24,950 --> 01:13:20,159
um but I think we should be very careful

1786
01:13:26,630 --> 01:13:24,960
about attributing agency to something

1787
01:13:28,970 --> 01:13:26,640
that we actually don't know anything I

1788
01:13:31,189 --> 01:13:28,980
mean we know very little about

1789
01:13:32,810 --> 01:13:31,199
that's that's fair yeah and I'll give

1790
01:13:36,050 --> 01:13:32,820
you just a simple example a few years

1791
01:13:38,270 --> 01:13:36,060
ago I was a judge on this panel on on

1792
01:13:41,570 --> 01:13:38,280
the survival of bodily death

1793
01:13:43,850 --> 01:13:41,580
and it was obvious that the essays broke

1794
01:13:46,189 --> 01:13:43,860
down into two schools of thought one

1795
01:13:46,970 --> 01:13:46,199
one's called the spirit hypothesis which

1796
01:13:49,010 --> 01:13:46,980
is

1797
01:13:50,990 --> 01:13:49,020
you know there are spirits in the room

1798
01:13:52,850 --> 01:13:51,000
or Spirits speaking through the the

1799
01:13:54,110 --> 01:13:52,860
medium or the person or possessing this

1800
01:13:57,890 --> 01:13:54,120
person

1801
01:13:58,790 --> 01:13:57,900
and the other hypothesis is

1802
01:14:01,310 --> 01:13:58,800
um

1803
01:14:04,130 --> 01:14:01,320
is called the lah the living agent

1804
01:14:06,530 --> 01:14:04,140
hypothesis and that's that the the

1805
01:14:08,870 --> 01:14:06,540
spirit phenomena is a function of a

1806
01:14:11,090 --> 01:14:08,880
living human being uh in the same

1807
01:14:14,209 --> 01:14:11,100
vicinity so for example the Poltergeist

1808
01:14:15,590 --> 01:14:14,219
phenomena I mean originally I think our

1809
01:14:17,810 --> 01:14:15,600
ancestors

1810
01:14:20,570 --> 01:14:17,820
thought that this was an angry or noisy

1811
01:14:22,430 --> 01:14:20,580
ghost in the house or in the room but

1812
01:14:24,649 --> 01:14:22,440
when we really started to look at it we

1813
01:14:27,470 --> 01:14:24,659
realized pretty quickly that

1814
01:14:29,390 --> 01:14:27,480
actually this is an adolescent or a

1815
01:14:32,090 --> 01:14:29,400
teenager that's under some kind of

1816
01:14:34,850 --> 01:14:32,100
trauma or stress or and they're

1817
01:14:37,250 --> 01:14:34,860
manifesting this physical phenomena

1818
01:14:39,290 --> 01:14:37,260
which is very real by the way but it

1819
01:14:42,050 --> 01:14:39,300
seems to be some kind of exteriorized

1820
01:14:43,729 --> 01:14:42,060
emotion again or trauma or or sexuality

1821
01:14:45,830 --> 01:14:43,739
frankly

1822
01:14:48,229 --> 01:14:45,840
um so I think that's an open question

1823
01:14:49,610 --> 01:14:48,239
and I don't think we have an answer to

1824
01:14:51,950 --> 01:14:49,620
that and I don't want to take a position

1825
01:14:54,290 --> 01:14:51,960
because I I don't know

1826
01:14:55,910 --> 01:14:54,300
but I think you're not I'm just sorry

1827
01:14:57,950 --> 01:14:55,920
you're not closed off to though it

1828
01:14:59,930 --> 01:14:57,960
possibly because I think that aligns

1829
01:15:02,930 --> 01:14:59,940
with Nathan's hypothesis but a non-human

1830
01:15:05,630 --> 01:15:02,940
intelligence looking for an inn I'm not

1831
01:15:08,149 --> 01:15:05,640
I'm not I'm not close-minded or close to

1832
01:15:10,010 --> 01:15:08,159
that possibility at all I just think we

1833
01:15:12,410 --> 01:15:10,020
have to be really careful about that

1834
01:15:15,050 --> 01:15:12,420
because I know I know too much about

1835
01:15:17,570 --> 01:15:15,060
history and how human beings have

1836
01:15:20,030 --> 01:15:17,580
demonized don't twist that experiences

1837
01:15:22,669 --> 01:15:20,040
and I just please don't do that and

1838
01:15:24,709 --> 01:15:22,679
don't demonize your own experience

1839
01:15:28,490 --> 01:15:24,719
but also don't deny that it's it's

1840
01:15:30,830 --> 01:15:28,500
negative or or even evil sometimes but

1841
01:15:33,229 --> 01:15:30,840
you know one of the the the first

1842
01:15:34,910 --> 01:15:33,239
lessons that the in the study of

1843
01:15:36,590 --> 01:15:34,920
Religion is that the sacred is not the

1844
01:15:39,590 --> 01:15:36,600
good

1845
01:15:41,870 --> 01:15:39,600
the holy is not the ethical

1846
01:15:44,870 --> 01:15:41,880
the holy or the sacred is the powerful

1847
01:15:48,229 --> 01:15:44,880
it's the powerful presence and it can

1848
01:15:51,290 --> 01:15:48,239
harm you and terrorize you as easily as

1849
01:15:53,390 --> 01:15:51,300
it can save or be beneficent to you and

1850
01:15:55,610 --> 01:15:53,400
it's the response it's the human

1851
01:15:59,810 --> 01:15:55,620
response that creates the awe or the

1852
01:16:01,729 --> 01:15:59,820
terror it's probably not the presence

1853
01:16:04,610 --> 01:16:01,739
um so that I would just you know I would

1854
01:16:06,470 --> 01:16:04,620
warn people uh to just be more

1855
01:16:08,630 --> 01:16:06,480
sophisticated there and I think our

1856
01:16:12,169 --> 01:16:08,640
culture as a whole just thinks that

1857
01:16:14,630 --> 01:16:12,179
Holiness is is is happiness it's it's

1858
01:16:17,630 --> 01:16:14,640
being a good nice person

1859
01:16:20,330 --> 01:16:17,640
and like no it's not sorry that's just

1860
01:16:25,610 --> 01:16:23,149
that was that was a great answer and it

1861
01:16:27,530 --> 01:16:25,620
really left it open but uh I'm sure

1862
01:16:29,810 --> 01:16:27,540
Nathan's gonna was doing a lot of amends

1863
01:16:32,990 --> 01:16:29,820
during that part uh does anyone have any

1864
01:16:36,050 --> 01:16:33,000
final quick hitters for uh Jeff before

1865
01:16:38,930 --> 01:16:36,060
we announce the winner of the free

1866
01:16:42,410 --> 01:16:38,940
passes and then we'll uh go with cabbie

1867
01:16:47,350 --> 01:16:45,410
no okay

1868
01:16:51,169 --> 01:16:47,360
um Nathan if you would do the honor sir

1869
01:16:53,450 --> 01:16:51,179
yes uh so uh thank you to Sean Feeney

1870
01:16:55,310 --> 01:16:53,460
who was able to list out uh 10 of your

1871
01:16:57,649 --> 01:16:55,320
Works uh Jeff during the course of this

1872
01:17:00,649 --> 01:16:57,659
interview so he will be the recipient of

1873
01:17:02,870 --> 01:17:00,659
the two all-inclusive uh passes for that

1874
01:17:04,189 --> 01:17:02,880
uh conference so very excited to award

1875
01:17:05,870 --> 01:17:04,199
this too Sean we'll get this to you as

1876
01:17:07,010 --> 01:17:05,880
soon as we can uh thanks for watching

1877
01:17:10,250 --> 01:17:07,020
and thanks for submitting those

1878
01:17:12,350 --> 01:17:10,260
responses uh this has been quite a show

1879
01:17:14,990 --> 01:17:12,360
Jeff really great to talk with you we'd

1880
01:17:16,250 --> 01:17:15,000
go on for many many hours and I hope we

1881
01:17:18,590 --> 01:17:16,260
get a chance to speak with you again

1882
01:17:20,510 --> 01:17:18,600
yeah let's do it again I I really

1883
01:17:23,030 --> 01:17:20,520
enjoyed it you you ask really good

1884
01:17:24,470 --> 01:17:23,040
questions I can tell instantly whether a

1885
01:17:27,110 --> 01:17:24,480
host has read anything or thought

1886
01:17:28,990 --> 01:17:27,120
through anything I assure you sometimes

1887
01:17:31,729 --> 01:17:29,000
they have it

1888
01:17:34,189 --> 01:17:31,739
this this is this is the very opposite

1889
01:17:35,689 --> 01:17:34,199
of that thank you very much uh why don't

1890
01:17:37,189 --> 01:17:35,699
we start with our cabbie goodbyes DJ

1891
01:17:40,970 --> 01:17:37,199
we'll start down with uh Frank maybe

1892
01:17:42,709 --> 01:17:40,980
work our way up yes yes sir please Frank

1893
01:17:44,209 --> 01:17:42,719
yeah I just want to say thank you very

1894
01:17:46,189 --> 01:17:44,219
much I've I've been really looking

1895
01:17:47,990 --> 01:17:46,199
forward to getting to Russia a couple of

1896
01:17:50,330 --> 01:17:48,000
questions since I heard you on uh James

1897
01:17:51,770 --> 01:17:50,340
and Dolly's show and uh yeah it's been

1898
01:17:57,050 --> 01:17:51,780
it's been a real pleasure so thank you

1899
01:18:01,130 --> 01:17:59,630
yeah thanks so much for uh your Insight

1900
01:18:03,110 --> 01:18:01,140
and sharing your thoughts on these

1901
01:18:06,290 --> 01:18:03,120
subjects and putting up with our

1902
01:18:09,229 --> 01:18:06,300
questions and all the questions I'm sure

1903
01:18:11,810 --> 01:18:09,239
you are very inundated with uh tons and

1904
01:18:14,990 --> 01:18:11,820
tons of emails and people wanting to

1905
01:18:16,610 --> 01:18:15,000
reach out to you uh I just want to ask

1906
01:18:17,570 --> 01:18:16,620
one quick thing while we're saying

1907
01:18:19,310 --> 01:18:17,580
goodbye

1908
01:18:22,550 --> 01:18:19,320
I am one of the people that have not

1909
01:18:25,970 --> 01:18:22,560
read any of your books where would be a

1910
01:18:28,430 --> 01:18:25,980
good place for me to start yeah so the

1911
01:18:31,250 --> 01:18:28,440
the the the one book I always suggest is

1912
01:18:32,990 --> 01:18:31,260
called Secret body and the reason I

1913
01:18:34,790 --> 01:18:33,000
suggest that it's the book of all the

1914
01:18:36,709 --> 01:18:34,800
books that I've written it goes through

1915
01:18:38,750 --> 01:18:36,719
all the books and it explains why I

1916
01:18:41,689 --> 01:18:38,760
wrote each one and so you kind of get

1917
01:18:44,630 --> 01:18:41,699
the whole thing Matt and then you can

1918
01:18:45,229 --> 01:18:44,640
focus in on whatever you want

1919
01:18:48,530 --> 01:18:45,239
um

1920
01:18:50,030 --> 01:18:48,540
so I I that's what I would suggest if

1921
01:18:52,729 --> 01:18:50,040
you want a short book there's a short

1922
01:18:54,709 --> 01:18:52,739
book called The Flip which I also often

1923
01:18:58,070 --> 01:18:54,719
suggest it's it's little you can do it

1924
01:19:00,530 --> 01:18:58,080
in an afternoon Secret body is Big

1925
01:19:02,270 --> 01:19:00,540
um but it gets you get the whole shebang

1926
01:19:04,910 --> 01:19:02,280
all right thanks so much

1927
01:19:07,970 --> 01:19:04,920
thank you uh that is amazing Leah Prime

1928
01:19:09,649 --> 01:19:07,980
go ahead ma'am yep uh Dr pipel thank you

1929
01:19:11,149 --> 01:19:09,659
again so so much

1930
01:19:12,770 --> 01:19:11,159
um the flip is the one that I had passed

1931
01:19:15,590 --> 01:19:12,780
along to all my friends who are on that

1932
01:19:17,030 --> 01:19:15,600
slow slide from materialism to uh he's

1933
01:19:18,709 --> 01:19:17,040
serious

1934
01:19:19,370 --> 01:19:18,719
um certainly certainly was formative for

1935
01:19:20,570 --> 01:19:19,380
me

1936
01:19:22,790 --> 01:19:20,580
um really enjoyed this conversation

1937
01:19:25,189 --> 01:19:22,800
really appreciate the generosity of time

1938
01:19:28,669 --> 01:19:25,199
thanks again yeah of course

1939
01:19:30,470 --> 01:19:28,679
Debs well I barely got to touch the tip

1940
01:19:32,810 --> 01:19:30,480
of the iceberg of the questions but I

1941
01:19:35,390 --> 01:19:32,820
wanted to say thank you for being part

1942
01:19:38,270 --> 01:19:35,400
of our Collective Consciousness and

1943
01:19:40,610 --> 01:19:38,280
protecting the archives that are part of

1944
01:19:42,229 --> 01:19:40,620
it as well and thank you for coming and

1945
01:19:43,850 --> 01:19:42,239
talking to us today

1946
01:19:45,229 --> 01:19:43,860
thank you

1947
01:19:47,270 --> 01:19:45,239
money

1948
01:19:49,729 --> 01:19:47,280
thank you so much for co-creating with

1949
01:19:52,850 --> 01:19:49,739
us today uh and engaging in the activity

1950
01:19:54,890 --> 01:19:52,860
of co-creation and modeling how it it

1951
01:19:58,130 --> 01:19:54,900
should be you know we've often I think

1952
01:20:00,850 --> 01:19:58,140
uh mistaken the sacred for the building

1953
01:20:03,890 --> 01:20:00,860
or the book instead of the relationship

1954
01:20:05,510 --> 01:20:03,900
and uh it's in those relationships and

1955
01:20:09,590 --> 01:20:05,520
that vulnerability in that exchange

1956
01:20:11,030 --> 01:20:09,600
where really the power emerges and uh

1957
01:20:12,649 --> 01:20:11,040
I felt that today and I'm really

1958
01:20:14,689 --> 01:20:12,659
grateful for that so looking forward to

1959
01:20:17,149 --> 01:20:14,699
uh continuing to follow your work and

1960
01:20:19,370 --> 01:20:17,159
and continuing the conversation

1961
01:20:22,430 --> 01:20:19,380
thanks Nathan

1962
01:20:24,290 --> 01:20:22,440
Jeff uh one of the things that uh in

1963
01:20:27,530 --> 01:20:24,300
presenting your artwork here today

1964
01:20:30,290 --> 01:20:27,540
there's a tremendous amount of work that

1965
01:20:34,070 --> 01:20:30,300
went into that meaning you read and

1966
01:20:36,350 --> 01:20:34,080
studied and thought a lot and invested a

1967
01:20:38,930 --> 01:20:36,360
lot of capital that is within you in

1968
01:20:42,530 --> 01:20:38,940
your you know in your spirit in your

1969
01:20:45,350 --> 01:20:42,540
emotion and in your uh your mind to

1970
01:20:47,630 --> 01:20:45,360
create uh ideas about what you've seen

1971
01:20:51,110 --> 01:20:47,640
unfold in life and try to help us to

1972
01:20:53,030 --> 01:20:51,120
figure out what has happened what is

1973
01:20:55,490 --> 01:20:53,040
happening and and perhaps you know us

1974
01:20:57,770 --> 01:20:55,500
Ponder what will happen and I really

1975
01:21:00,649 --> 01:20:57,780
appreciate it in the audience you know

1976
01:21:03,050 --> 01:21:00,659
should recognize what it took Jeff to

1977
01:21:06,350 --> 01:21:03,060
get to this point to become one of these

1978
01:21:08,810 --> 01:21:06,360
people that is helps us develop what our

1979
01:21:10,490 --> 01:21:08,820
philosophies are because without him you

1980
01:21:12,470 --> 01:21:10,500
know we're bouncing off others and you

1981
01:21:15,110 --> 01:21:12,480
need to engage with people that that

1982
01:21:17,689 --> 01:21:15,120
have put in more work uh than you have

1983
01:21:20,450 --> 01:21:17,699
uh and in and in this case you've put in

1984
01:21:23,149 --> 01:21:20,460
a hell of a lot more work than I have

1985
01:21:25,729 --> 01:21:23,159
um but I I really do appreciate it I'm

1986
01:21:28,490 --> 01:21:25,739
honored that you would join us and um uh

1987
01:21:30,169 --> 01:21:28,500
we like to say sometimes in cab we keep

1988
01:21:31,910 --> 01:21:30,179
it short but we we always leave them

1989
01:21:34,310 --> 01:21:31,920
wanting more and we hope that you'll

1990
01:21:37,610 --> 01:21:34,320
come back and do a part two with us

1991
01:21:39,830 --> 01:21:37,620
yeah I first of all absolutely let's do

1992
01:21:42,830 --> 01:21:39,840
a part two but you know though the work

1993
01:21:47,030 --> 01:21:42,840
first of all it's 30 years or 35 or 40

1994
01:21:50,750 --> 01:21:47,040
or whatever but it's 40 years now but

1995
01:21:53,870 --> 01:21:50,760
our culture has supported that and you

1996
01:21:56,270 --> 01:21:53,880
know I mean I work in the university and

1997
01:21:58,490 --> 01:21:56,280
I have a job because of our culture and

1998
01:22:00,890 --> 01:21:58,500
so there's this weird

1999
01:22:03,290 --> 01:22:00,900
there's this weird thing where the

2000
01:22:07,310 --> 01:22:03,300
culture demeans and dismisses but also

2001
01:22:10,370 --> 01:22:07,320
supports and encourages and I I also

2002
01:22:13,729 --> 01:22:10,380
often say I love I love academics I love

2003
01:22:16,850 --> 01:22:13,739
intellectuals and I I really do I think

2004
01:22:19,550 --> 01:22:16,860
they're trying to do the right thing and

2005
01:22:21,950 --> 01:22:19,560
again our cultures and our our states

2006
01:22:24,050 --> 01:22:21,960
and our our countries support this in

2007
01:22:27,290 --> 01:22:24,060
some weird way so I think it's

2008
01:22:30,169 --> 01:22:27,300
complicated and I I do what I do because

2009
01:22:31,850 --> 01:22:30,179
people allow me to do it and you know I

2010
01:22:36,050 --> 01:22:31,860
don't have to worry about a roof over my

2011
01:22:39,110 --> 01:22:36,060
head or food on the table so I

2012
01:22:40,669 --> 01:22:39,120
I I just it's complicated is all I want

2013
01:22:42,950 --> 01:22:40,679
to say

2014
01:22:46,250 --> 01:22:42,960
yeah it certainly is but and we need

2015
01:22:48,470 --> 01:22:46,260
people to help us to unravel it to sort

2016
01:22:50,450 --> 01:22:48,480
of provoke us to think about these

2017
01:22:52,850 --> 01:22:50,460
issues and without folks like yourself

2018
01:22:56,270 --> 01:22:52,860
we're about to have uh Professor espion

2019
01:22:58,250 --> 01:22:56,280
Harkins we've had uh Diana Walsh sulkon

2020
01:23:01,010 --> 01:22:58,260
you know that that that really helps us

2021
01:23:03,590 --> 01:23:01,020
and the community so we're very proud of

2022
01:23:05,689 --> 01:23:03,600
you and you know like Matt Knapp down

2023
01:23:07,370 --> 01:23:05,699
there we can see that you you can bring

2024
01:23:09,470 --> 01:23:07,380
these communities together UFOs

2025
01:23:11,810 --> 01:23:09,480
paranormal we have somebody from the

2026
01:23:14,209 --> 01:23:11,820
Bigfoot Community who's been in it for a

2027
01:23:17,090 --> 01:23:14,219
couple of decades and that's what we

2028
01:23:19,850 --> 01:23:17,100
Endeavor to do here and yeah

2029
01:23:23,270 --> 01:23:19,860
well apologize to Sean I screwed his

2030
01:23:25,850 --> 01:23:23,280
name up and uh Diana's a dear friend

2031
01:23:27,950 --> 01:23:25,860
I've known Diana for years so I all

2032
01:23:29,810 --> 01:23:27,960
those people are are friends and again

2033
01:23:31,550 --> 01:23:29,820
that's what I mean by I love and I love

2034
01:23:33,229 --> 01:23:31,560
these people they're they're trying to

2035
01:23:35,930 --> 01:23:33,239
do the right thing

2036
01:23:39,229 --> 01:23:35,940
yep we really appreciate you guys so uh

2037
01:23:40,669 --> 01:23:39,239
with that uh Sean Feeney uh Nathan if he

2038
01:23:43,550 --> 01:23:40,679
hasn't already got a hold of you will

2039
01:23:46,669 --> 01:23:43,560
you are the winner and on behalf of uh

2040
01:23:49,669 --> 01:23:46,679
Julie in the chat Dr kreypel Frank Matt

2041
01:23:52,490 --> 01:23:49,679
Leah Deb and money Nathan this is DJ

2042
01:23:54,770 --> 01:23:52,500
saying peace out one love

2043
01:23:56,270 --> 01:23:54,780
we'll see you down the road and as

2044
01:23:58,270 --> 01:23:56,280
always we're wondering what's up around